Landlord responsibility for commercial buildling.

[JDB3]

Were they relying on the screws from the device to ground it from the "metal box and metal conduit" ?

 

[markebenson]

Were they relying on the screws from the device to ground it from the "metal box and metal conduit" ?

This appears to be the case.

 

[markebenson]

Arent you an electrician? Do you have a code book?
It sounds like a handyman asking?

Of course and 3 wires are required for outlet per NEC today. Now for existing problems, what method will at least satisfy an inspector and at the same time make the space reasonably safe for occupancy?

 

[markebenson]

When you say no grounding system, what do you mean?
Is the two wires run inside a metallic conduit? Is this old bx cable?

Either one of these are currently accepted grounding systems if properly installed.

I am sorry for any confusion, I meant that there is not a grounding rod installed.

The wiring method is 2 wires in metallic conduit, perhaps relying on the outlet screws for ground assuming that you have solid conduit connections throughout the building back to the panel, but this is an old building and the work is less than stellar so I would not take that for granted.

 

[gadfly56]

I am sorry for any confusion, I meant that there is not a grounding rod installed.

The wiring method is 2 wires in metallic conduit, perhaps relying on the outlet screws for ground assuming that you have solid conduit connections throughout the building back to the panel, but this is an old building and the work is less than stellar so I would not take that for granted.

Assuming they didn't install any bootleg grounds, just check continuity/resistance between the neutral and the box.

 

[petersonra]

Hi Guys!

I have a client who is leasing a commercial office space and upon changing outlets we discovered that there is no gounding system whatsoever. Only 2 wires run to each box and a very old FPC panel with no grounding rod. Could you please direct me to any documentation showing the landlord's responsibilty to correct this? We are in Florida.

Thank you!

two wire outlets may have been code legal when installed.

ground rods are not required, although some kind of grounding electrode system is.

it is not up to you as an EC to enforce whatever rules the local authorities might have about such things. if you are uncomfortable with the situation move on to something else or tell the owner what you think it will take to "fix" it.

 

[ActionDave]

I think part of the confusion stems from what I believe are local amendments in Florida vs. NEC. I think FL requires a wire EGC, or at least some parts of the state do.

 

[mgookin]

Putting all this together, seems like we can solve this.
EC's help me out here if I'm misunderstanding any details.

There is 2 wires run inside metallic conduit, there are 3 prong outlets installed with nothing connected to the ground terminal. The panel has no grounding rod attached.

Don't confuse an Earth ground at the service with bonding within the building. They are different things.

2 wires run in any metallic conduit is fine as long as that metallic conduit is continuous back to the panel which the branch circuit is connected to. Nothing connected to the ground screw of a receptacle is fine with a metal box if the receptacle is an auto-ground receptacle. Check for continuity from the

If there's no Earth grounding at the service, pound some rods and get it done with.

They are not.

I spoke to the bulding department today and was told that since work was done without a permit and the ungrounded outlets are creating a hazard then the landlord should correct the problem and if I want to proceed further then code enforcement would assist. Now I understand the landlord could opt to put 2 wire outlets back in (pending what the lease states the use of space is for perhaps),
but I believe the roof A/C among other things is connected to this non-grounded sytem also. I am going to check that.

You very well may have spoken with someone who did not know what they were talking about. Trust me, I spent a career in a Florida building department and at times someone asks a question and is misinformed. Not everyone who takes calls or greets walk-ins is a NEC expert.

I think part of the confusion stems from what I believe are local amendments in Florida vs. NEC. I think FL requires a wire EGC, or at least some parts of the state do.

Amendments are a thing of the past since around 2001. I wouldn't worry about this today.

OP: I think you're misinformed and/ or misunderstanding. I don't see anything here that can't make sure your friend (or client) is in good shape with a couple hours spent at his facility. Between your efforts and everyone on here, we already spent much more than that already.

 

[peter d]

Almost every commercial building that I work in that was built prior to the late 90's, early 2000's does not have a separate EGC in metallic raceways.

 

[markebenson]

Thank you very good points but now i have an additional problem. I am reading more than 100 ohms between neutral ground . Checked several outlets.

Putting all this together, seems like we can solve this.
EC's help me out here if I'm misunderstanding any details.



Don't confuse an Earth ground at the service with bonding within the building. They are different things.

2 wires run in any metallic conduit is fine as long as that metallic conduit is continuous back to the panel which the branch circuit is connected to. Nothing connected to the ground screw of a receptacle is fine with a metal box if the receptacle is an auto-ground receptacle. Check for continuity from the

If there's no Earth grounding at the service, pound some rods and get it done with.



You very well may have spoken with someone who did not know what they were talking about. Trust me, I spent a career in a Florida building department and at times someone asks a question and is misinformed. Not everyone who takes calls or greets walk-ins is a NEC expert.



Amendments are a thing of the past since around 2001. I wouldn't worry about this today.

OP: I think you're misinformed and/ or misunderstanding. I don't see anything here that can't make sure your friend (or client) is in good shape with a couple hours spent at his facility. Between your efforts and everyone on here, we already spent much more than that already.

 

[mgookin]

Thank you very good points but now i have an additional problem. I am reading more than 100 ohms between neutral ground . Checked several outlets. View attachment 16326

Go back to the panel and measure it from the raceway to the neutral and see what you get. That will tell you where the problem is.

 

[mpoulton]

Regardless of whether there is a significant problem with the present wiring or not, the question of whose responsibility it is to fix whatever problems may exist will be answered by the tenant's lease. Commercial leases explicitly define whether the landlord or the tenant is responsible for these types of things, and also define what representations and warranties the landlord makes regarding usability of the existing facility. In many commercial leases (the majority, I would say), this kind of situation is entirely the tenant's responsibility even if the existing wiring is unusable and was illegally installed. In other leases (a minority), the landlord is required to provide whatever electrical upgrades the tenant requires for its use of the space. They need to read the lease and figure out whose problem this is to solve.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Regardless of whether there is a significant problem with the present wiring or not, the question of whose responsibility it is to fix whatever problems may exist will be answered by the tenant's lease. Commercial leases explicitly define whether the landlord or the tenant is responsible for these types of things, and also define what representations and warranties the landlord makes regarding usability of the existing facility. In many commercial leases (the majority, I would say), this kind of situation is entirely the tenant's responsibility even if the existing wiring is unusable and was illegally installed. In other leases (a minority), the landlord is required to provide whatever electrical upgrades the tenant requires for its use of the space. They need to read the lease and figure out whose problem this is to solve.

Correct, I say that because I'm one of those building engineers everyone loves to hate... If the building is leased "as is", tenants responsibility, but my company insists that any major code violations/problems need to be corrected by the owner.

 

[markebenson]

Final Resolution

Final Resolution

The existing conduit work was missing nuts on the set screw connectors left and right and the work and was not useable in my opinion. The Landlord was notified and accepted some responsiblity and then sent his electrician who quoted him an astronomical price for repulling all wire. I quoted the job at 2 days and the quote was accepted. I cut the emt at the top of each outlet feed. Put a j-box on each stub, then tied them all in with flex. The work was above the drop ceiling. This was the most efficient way I could think of to deal with the problem.

 

[mgookin]

The existing conduit work was missing nuts on the set screw connectors left and right and the work and was not useable in my opinion. The Landlord was notified and accepted some responsiblity and then sent his electrician who quoted him an astronomical price for repulling all wire. I quoted the job at 2 days and the quote was accepted. I cut the emt at the top of each outlet feed. Put a j-box on each stub, then tied them all in with flex. The work was above the drop ceiling. This was the most efficient way I could think of to deal with the problem.

Glad it worked out. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the update.