Large radius conduit bending

[iwire]

My feelings are that quality trumps quantity any day.

A common feeling among those not paying for it. :smile:

I have read alot about the dollar amount on job bids but a contractor who builds a reputation on producing high quality work is more likely to get jobs than one who just slams it together.

That is not a rule, I know of many large ECs in this area that are doing very well 'just slamming it together. There are also some smaller ECs that do very well by working for a just a select few customers that want things done in a particular way.

Exposed conduit is were a electrician has their work on display for all to see.

Almost no one cares what it looks like except the electrician that installed it and other electricians.

It is not art, it is a mechanical system and to the layman it is alway ugly no matter what level of craftsmanship went into it.

An electrician with the right skills and tools can produce really high quality conduit runs in a resonanle amount of time so the added cost of a skilled hand doing good conduit work makes up for itself in the long run when the contractor gets a reputation for high quality.

I think that is just a dream, not the reality of the market.

It happens for the past two weeks I have been on a crew at a T&M EMT job turning an old red brick and timber-frame waterfront warehouse into a state of the art commercial lighting showroom. In this case it is the dream customer, they want us to hide all the EMT work as best we can and have no problem asking us start over if they are not happy with the results. I am having a ball, it's been a long time since I have been told to 'be an artist', I make each bend very carefully and toss away bad bends instead of making it work. But this is the customers choice, it is money directly from their pocket.

On the other hand we also build supermarkets, Wal-marts, Lowe's etc and can tell you in no uncertain terms they do not care about quality, only price and being open on time.

 

[iwire]

Is everyone comfortable when a doctor tells you that he has done "an adequate job" when treating you for some illness?

Nope, but 90% of the doctors did not graduate in the top 10% of their class and they are out there working being called professionals.

These people are considered professional, and I consider myself a professional.

Being a professional does not mean spending the customers money just to satisfy our own need to feel good about our chosen trade.

Why not take pride in our work?

I take a lot of pride in my work regardless of it being extravagant or code minimum.

Is it the fact that we cannot take pride in what we do directly related to only economic factors...or is it because people doing the electric work don't care about quality, and only care about the quantity of money they make?

I like this trade, I take pride in m work but I work to live not live to work. Money is why I go to work each day. If you deny that is why you go to work each day I think your kidding yourself.

There have been people posting pictures on this web site of the horrible installations that they have run across. Is that the type work what we want our trade to be represented by?

Those pictures of terrible work do not represent me or you, they are just pictures of terrible work.

When you see a bad driver on the road do you think that makes you look like a bad driver?

When you hear a doctor made a mistake do you suddenly feel all doctors are incompetent?

Why can't we elevate ourselves to a higher standard?

Our own personal conduct (honesty, integrity, etc.) is what matters in my opinion.

Don't customers rely on our professionalism?

Certainly some do, many don't care.

Maybe I am assuming that everyone considers themselves professionals.

Your definition of what a professional is not everyones definition of professional.

My definition is more along the lines of providing the service the customer paid for. If they want to pay for a Cadillac great that is what I will provide, if they want to pay for a KIA that is fine too, that is what I will provide.

Why do we line up our couplings and make concentric bends when necessary? It is because we are proud of what we sell.

If it adds cost to the job what value did it provide the customer?

To each their own, we are all very set in our ways and we will all work how we choose to work.:smile:

My own feeling is we are tradesmen, not artists, we are not in a Nobel profession, it is just a trade. We will not make a lasting impression on this world through our trade.

 

[peter d]

My own feeling is we are tradesmen, not artists, we are not in a Nobel profession, it is just a trade. We will not make a lasting impression on this world through our trade.

But I thought electricians were the center of the universe?

 

[Red Wiggler]

Hmmm...I suddenly feel alone in my opinions.

98% of the work that I do is in the form of a "hard money estimates" that resulted in a winning bid and an awarded job. During the bidding process there is some "value engineering" going on that reduces the cost of the job by substituting less costly fixtures, altering the gear packages, using MC cable in leiu of conduit, etc. but I don't recall ever offering less quality in our craftmanship to reduce the cost of the job. I do however employ methods on my jobs that result in a more efficient installation resulting a larger profit margins for the contractor I work for. But I don't sacrafice quality in doing so and the contractor I work for expects me to consitantly produce the quality work that I have done on previous jobs.

I somewhat regret posting my opinions because I had no idea that there are so many people that view their electrical careers as just jobs.

 

[iwire]

I somewhat regret posting my opinions because I had no idea that there are so many people that view their electrical careers as just jobs.

Post your opinions, certainly many agree with you and just because I don't see it your way does not mean your wrong. We are just different.

 

[cadpoint]

But I thought electricians were the center of the universe? :grin:

Originally Posted by iwire
My own feeling is we are tradesmen, not artists, we are not in a Nobel profession, it is just a trade. We will not make a lasting impression on this world through our trade.


U two guys can really take the wind out of someone's sails ...

And the Man owns a meggar.

We work around a potential differance all the time!
When one realizes that the minimum that we can do is create a code compliant installation that has no potential, I don't think it could get any better, as creative as you want to get is an excess, your right I'll never see it your way.

If you don't appriacate your tradesmanship (or any noun, verb adjective you might want to answer with) and, I'll limit it to that creation, then you don't get it!

U go Red!

 

[iwire]

If you don't appriacate your tradesmanship (or any noun, verb adjective you might want to answer with) and, I'll limit it to that creation, then you don't get it!

What you don't get and maybe I can't explain it clearly is this.

I can still be proud of doing a good, code compliant job using minimal materials and time if that is what the customer needs or wants.

 

[cadpoint]

W.I.T. Sir!

Whatever It Takes... Its a situations where humans are involved!
That alone is a big factor!

We could truely talk along time about what one brings to the Job, we see the results here daily!

It was on my part a response to exactly the mimimum aspect of us appling work.
Where capable of alot of work to just do the minimum does that equate or have any bearing to the thread no. But, it frankly sounded so low to hold us to some par-a-phrase, that is what I'm addressing.

Tradesman, craftsman, Par-Professional how ever you want to address it,
I'm sorry my arguement is something other than your saying. I'll Back Down.

 

[peter d]

U two guys can really take the wind out of someone's sails ...

Just voicing my opinion. I simply attribute my views to having a flexible mindset about every job. Some jobs are "git r done" and some allow for artwork. I have no problem doing either and everything in between. I don't apply the same standard of workmanship to every job, because good enough is good enough the majority of the time. And it's all about the $$$ anyway, not what I think is going to look beautiful.

 

[peter d]

I do however employ methods on my jobs that result in a more efficient installation resulting a larger profit margins for the contractor I work for. But I don't sacrafice quality in doing so and the contractor I work for expects me to consitantly produce the quality work that I have done on previous jobs.

Earlier you mentioned that you had 86 electricians at your disposal. That certainly makes your job a lot easier when it comes to picking and choosing people for certain task. I'm just saying it's easy from your perspective to say "I can crank out high quality jobs on time and under budget" when you have a large, diverse workforce. That is essentially how successful large contractors operate (diversity of skills.)

But the majority of small/medium contractors simply do not have the luxury of having so many guys on hand with wide a variety of skills. They have to deal with what they have and what they are handed.

 

[RHJohnson]

Red Wiggler - I appreciate your craftsmanship. Lucky for me I never worked on any projects where quality was not important.
I saw people get fired for spring fitting conduit - also saw a guy told to tear it out and do it over, and warned that if not done as wanted he would be fired. He did it over the next day, not in an acceptable manner and was fired, then his partner was given the same opportunity. He did an acceptable job.
No big deal to do segment bends, go to an oil refinery tank farm - lots of conduit going around and around!
Do residential and commercial guys feel quality is not important - or is it that they just had a boss screaming at them to get it done, and did it the fastest way they knew how.
I knew a foreman years ago who said, "you can teach quality, and the speed will come with experience". If the guy can't do quality he can't work on my job. Those jobs were all good jobs to work on. you never heard anyone ask "who put in that pile of junk", or say that terminal box looks like a bunch of snakes trying to get out.

 

[Red Wiggler]

Of the 86 people that I had on the job, only 9 besides myself were already employed by the contractor that was awarded the job. Everyone else was hired. And of the 76 that were hired I believe that less than 20 still work for us. I probably had hired an additional 20 or 30 people that were terminated or quit for various reasons...some because of "lack of production", "absenteeism", "failure to exhibit skills necessary for the job", because of violating company policy (drugs), or they just left town. It is not like I had a huge stockpile of people at my disposal. We had to hire people as we needed them.

When I said I had 86 people on the job, that was at the "peak" of the job. We started job with just a few people, ramped up to 86 and then reduced as the job was finishing. But on a job like that you still need to recognize indivdual skill levels and use them to your advantage. You manipulate your people like a chess game.

 

[ohmhead]

bigg conduit bending we do it everyday

bigg conduit bending we do it everyday

Well we disagree with some of the post . Fact is most electricians just think they can bend conduit the ones who slam it in . Big conduit on a job is planning and installing it and it takes years to get it right not a book you read or the average electrician who just bends 1/2 or 3/4 inch everyday , one must think when bending rigid how will it screw together ? Will we start the offset first middle or last in that run ? Sometimes 20 or 30 foot sections need to go up in before you start it might be in the middle of that run of conduit . Dollar or cost of rigid is high so no mistakes can be made . When you get real good you can cut and thread a piece of rigid then bend it after all cuts and treads are made . You must know shrink per degree per conduit size , you must know gain factors in radi to loss in length to offsets and figure all that into your bending .Its a special job and lots of calculations and skill hands on . Just think labor 6 inch rigid conduit a offset can take 30 minutes for each bending part of that offset and that 6 inch conduit is 20 foot long to just make them bends in that offset . Hope we did not offend anyone .best to ya

 

[Fulthrotl]

Hmmm...I suddenly feel alone in my opinions.

I somewhat regret posting my opinions because I had no idea that there are so many people that view their electrical careers as just jobs.

you're not alone in your opinions.
far from it.

iwire just doesn't agree with you.

that is not a problem. far from it.

i've had the opportunity over the last 30 years to work in a
variety of settings. with a variety of people. i've had the privilege
of working with and for some phenomenally talented people.

your point of view is as easy to read as a billboard. your point
of view is "old school" to use that beaten phrase.

it works for me. i'll come run pipe on your job anytime. i miss
the type of work you find on a large installation....

as for iwire, don't worry too much about it. he's analyzed me
as overcompensating, and called me a liar, saying i couldn't do
something that i in fact did do.

from my perspective, he's a three day spin. not to worry.


randy

 

[peter d]

Do residential and commercial guys feel quality is not important - or is it that they just had a boss screaming at them to get it done, and did it the fastest way they knew how.

I guess you haven't read a single thing I've said so far, so I'll say it again:

Every single job's level of quality gets adjusted up or down for what the budget will allow.

That does not mean I am against doing high quality work. Far from it actually. I'm simply saying you cannot apply the "every job must be done with the highest level of quality and workmanship" every single time. As Marc said, the customer should get the "good, better and best" options and be allowed to choose the one that suits him best.

Money is always easy to spend when it's not your own, isn't it?

As for concentric bends, I don't care if you have the best conduit man in the world - making a concentric bend versus a one-shot when a one shot will do takes more time. More time = more cost. Who pays for that? Either the contractor eats it, or the contractor has figured it into his bid, in which case the customer is paying for something that will add no value to his building but sure looks pretty.

 

[iwire]

from my perspective, he's a three day spin. not to worry.

I don't know how I will continue.

 

[peter d]

I don't know how I will continue.

Bob, it's ok. There are suicide hotlines you can call. I don't want to read your obituary in the paper on Monday.

 

[ohmhead]

Question was how to bend around a tank ?

Question was how to bend around a tank ?

Well were not talking about a commercial building were kind of talking a plant like industrial electrical work which our company bids on mostly .So yes the bid includes the sweep bends and the sweep bends are required by engineering specs most of our cables dont fit in your standard 90 s , the op was asking so we were giving him a example of some segment bending . Sorry if we offended anyone we were just trying to help out the op . I guess we all do different electrical work but we have to bend sweeps on every job not thinking about it were just doing what they pay for and it has to look good its exposed . best to ya

 

[petersonra]

Is everyone comfortable when a doctor tells you that he has done "an adequate job" when treating you for some illness? What about an airline pilot...do we accept the fact that he does the only the "minimum" when he controls an airplane. What about lawyers, accountants, or any professional that we rely on with our lives and our money? Are we satisfied with just the minimum or adequate work?

50% of all doctors, lawyers, accountants and pilots are below average. does that mean that somehow it is unsafe to use their services?

do i really need a brain surgeon to give me a basic physical? or a $500/hour lawyer to write a 3 paragraph will?

 

[480sparky]

50% of all doctors, lawyers, accountants and pilots are below average.......

Median, not average.