Large Well Pump on VFD

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mike_kilroy

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I had been involved in early development of VFDs in the seventies after its first inception in Finland in the sixties.

I can't let THIS go uncontested...

Refu Elektronics in Germany insist THEY invented VFDs in the earley 1960's and invented vector control VFD drive in the mid to later 1960's.

I suspect you will get argument too from the likes of GE and Reliance. We supplied DC SCR servo drives in the late 1960's to Cincinnati Milacron who were using GE and or Reliance VFD drives for their AC Induction spindle motors.

So I doubt the validity of a statement saying Findland definitely invented VFD. BTW, we still service some of these drives still running on machine tools today!
 

Jraef

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I can't let THIS go uncontested...

Refu Elektronics in Germany insist THEY invented VFDs in the earley 1960's and invented vector control VFD drive in the mid to later 1960's.

I suspect you will get argument too from the likes of GE and Reliance. We supplied DC SCR servo drives in the late 1960's to Cincinnati Milacron who were using GE and or Reliance VFD drives for their AC Induction spindle motors.

So I doubt the validity of a statement saying Findland definitely invented VFD. BTW, we still service some of these drives still running on machine tools today!
I think this depends on how you define "VFD" and how you define "invented". The Emmerson and Reliance drives in the 60s though the early 80s were 6 step GTO based drives, so they were "VFDs", but not as we know them now. Marti Harmoinen at Stromberg (Finland) delevoped the first transistorized PWM drive in 1961-2, but didn't have a commercial success with it until 1972. Refu released their spindle drives based on the Stromberg power structure in 1968. So technically, Refu did release the first commercially available PWM drive, but it was Stromberg who "invented" it.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
Reliance was purchased for $2,000,000,000 by EXXON, specifically to market the "VFD"! Resulted in a big argument between the two groups of engineers as to what size to concentrate on!

Jraef... the "invention" as you called it was based on "the" NASA patent!

Phil Corso
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I think this depends on how you define "VFD" and how you define "invented".
You might also want to define it as "solid state".
I've worked on paper machine drives that dated back to the 1930s which used variable frequency drives as part of the speed reference system.
 

mike_kilroy

Senior Member
Location
United States
You might also want to define it as "solid state".
I've worked on paper machine drives that dated back to the 1930s which used variable frequency drives as part of the speed reference system.
Yes sir. Back in 1975 when I officially debuted as young inexperienced vfd engineer on the VFD scene, I watched TUBES glow blue running motors!!!

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We can go back to 1910 for this-
https://www.google.com/patents/US949320

My invention relates to alternating-current generators, and its object is to provide a self-exciting alternating-current generator capable of delivering current at frequencies which may be varied over a wide range. Such a generator finds a useful application in supplying current to induction motors for driving cars, locomotives, or other mechanism which are to be driven at variable speeds.
[...]
My invention consists in adapting a machine of this type for delivering currents, the frequency of which may be varied over wide ranges. I accomplish this by connecting the stator and rotor windings to each other through a variable voltage transformer, instead of directly. WVith the connection thus made, the frequency of the currents delivered is equal to the frequency of rotation multiplied by the secondary turns of the transformer, and divided by the sum of the secondary and primary turns of the transformer; those transformer turns which Specification of Letters Patent.
 

GoldDigger

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A transformer where the output frequency depends in the turns ratio?

Maybe if the generator has a governor sensitive to output voltage rather than shaft speed???

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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
A transformer where the output frequency depends in the turns ratio?

Maybe if the generator has a governor sensitive to output voltage rather than shaft speed???

Shaft speed is part of the equation.
the frequency of the currents delivered is equal to the frequency of rotation multiplied by the secondary turns of the transformer
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Than reread the patent claim in post #27.
Could the inventor have supplied a working model?
What doesn't seem to be mentioned is the prime mover. I might have missed that if it did.
The paper mill application I mentioned used a variable speed DC motor driving an alternator. The master motor set. Fairly small - maybe 10HP from memory.
The main drives on the paper machine were DC with shunt field regulators controlled by a differential gearbox regulator. One input came from the main motor shaft so represented actual motor speed. The other was driven from an ac motor the speed of which was determined by the variable frequency from the master set alternator. That was the speed reference or demanded speed. If the demanded speed and actual speed didn't match, a rheostat driven by the output shaft of the differential gearbox would adjust motor field until they did. That gave absolute speed holding. Critical on a paper making machine.
 

GoldDigger

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What doesn't seem to be mentioned is the prime mover. I might have missed that if it did.
The paper mill application I mentioned used a variable speed DC motor driving an alternator. The master motor set. Fairly small - maybe 10HP from memory.
The main drives on the paper machine were DC with shunt field regulators controlled by a differential gearbox regulator. One input came from the main motor shaft so represented actual motor speed. The other was driven from an ac motor the speed of which was determined by the variable frequency from the master set alternator. That was the speed reference or demanded speed. If the demanded speed and actual speed didn't match, a rheostat driven by the output shaft of the differential gearbox would adjust motor field until they did. That gave absolute speed holding. Critical on a paper making machine.
Perhaps equally important for some applications, it gives zero long term position offset as well as zero speed offset.
Just as the regulation of power line frequency seeks not just to maintain frequency but to produce the target number of cycles in every 24 hour (or shorter) period to maintain clock accuracy.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Perhaps equally important for some applications, it gives zero long term position offset as well as zero speed offset.
Just as the regulation of power line frequency seeks not just to maintain frequency but to produce the target number of cycles in every 24 hour (or shorter) period to maintain clock accuracy.
I don't want to get too far off topic here but paper making is quite an interesting VSD application/challenge. The endless web. Various technologies have been used throughout the decades but now, most use VFDs for the main power.
A little background on the application if I may. A typical newsprint machine may have 15 main drives, sections as they are called. The basic process hasn't changed much in decades. This goes from about a 2% suspension of cellulose fibre in water at the wet end which has little tensile strength to the finished product at the dry end - paper as most of us know it.

The challenge for the drives designer is to achieve and maintain constant speed ratios between the sections. Draw. At the wet end, it is about 1% or so. The difference over, say the last four sections, is typically 0.25% - in total. Most VFDs I've been involved with for this use encoders - 2048 or 4096.

It is not the most technically challenging except maybe, when you consider the powers involved. On the last one I did the drive supply transformer capacity was 4MVA comprising two 2MVA 12-pulse transformers. And that's sort of middle of the road for modern machines.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
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Did a 100 HP submersible with an AB Powerflex 700, runs in a control loop, works great.
Most submersible apps the motor is below the pump, there is a minimum CFS flow around the motor for cooling, need to accelerate past that min speed and then do your ramp.
We also have a loop based on well level or drawdown, in case the aquifer is low we can limit the well drawdown.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
I still do not understand how the turns ratio (not the number of poles) affects the output frequency.

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Perhaps the transformer output voltage, controlled by turns ratio, changes the speed of rotation and hence the frequency?
 

drktmplr12

Senior Member
Location
South Florida
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Electrical Engineer
Did OP have his question answered?

Programming is a misnomer..Configuration is what's happening here.


  1. Is the motor (Totally Enclosed, Fan Cooled) TEFC? If so, then the motor mfg. will require a minimum speed to ensure the motor is adequately cooled. Set the drive minimum frequency to match this speed.
  2. Does the pump manufacturer require minimum/maximum acceleration times? Get this info from the pump supplier and set the acceleration times accordingly.
  3. Which VFD make and model? What does the VFD manufacturer have to say about your specific application? I recommend contacting the manufacturer's engineering support network to discuss your application. They might have insights, they might not.
  4. 2 or 3 wire control. Find out by looking at the VFD control schematic.
  5. How does the mechanical engineer want to turn off the motor? Freewheel? Controlled stop??
  6. Assuming there is an HOA selector switch, what is the speed reference when the selector switch is placed in hand-should it be the VFD display, or a potentiometer input to the drive? It shouldn't be the remote speed reference signal. Refer to the VFD control schematic.
  7. This is a well pumping water, presumably. Torque shouldn't be an issue. Your drive is probably variable-torque variety anyways.
  8. Some drives do an automatic tuning to measure motor stator resistance, inductance, etc etc. Consult the VFD mfg and see if they recommend it.

edit: formatting
 
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