Large Wire Pull Problems

[don_resqcapt19]

...no its not, and you know it. There is no way union electricians are going to supervise laborers and allow them to pull in major feeders for a building, especially when union work is hard to come by these days. Again, as I have stated in my other posts, not all non union contractors operate this way, but this one does!

I am aware of union contractors who do this type of work every day. Like I said before this type of work comes from the top down. It does not originate with the workers, and it doesn't matter if the workers are union or not. This type of work is more and more common as contractors are cutting their bids below actual costs and trying to make up those cuts in the field.

 

[Jon456]

Don’t know why but I just read this entire thread. This thread sounds to me like someone who is hunting for a reason to not pay their bill by saying he done this or he done that. :rant:

I don't know what the total cost of this project is, but it easily exceeds $1M. I also don't know how much the contractor is getting paid, but I do know it's a LOT of money. I also know that the contractor has been receiving (large) payments in installments on a scheduled basis per his contract. No monies have been withheld.

We are not -- in any way, shape, or form -- trying to avoid paying our bills. In fact, the owner has been more than fair with this contractor.

This is a large solar array project and it qualifies for a federal rebate equaling 30% of all expenses (materials and labor). The job was supposed to be completed, per contract, by mid-September so the owner could get the rebate paperwork filed by a 30 September deadline. The job is not yet completed, and will not be complete for at least another week. Not only are we losing revenues on the power we should already be producing, but because the contractor caused us to miss the initial rebate filing deadline, our rebate application will have to go through a slower and more rigorous approval process.

There were performance milestones written into the contract with the electrical contractor; there were financial penalties for missing those milestones. At the beginning of the job, the contractor made a big mistake: he erroneously ordered all the fasteners and strut for the array framework in electrogalvanized (EG) finish, even though stainless steel and hot-dipped galvanized were clearly specified in the engineered plans. Despite being told he had the wrong materials, he was in such a hurry to get started that, instead of waiting for the correct parts to arrive, he proceeded to frame two of our arrays with the EG parts. At that point, the owner realized that the contractor was going to sacrifice quality in order to meet the performance milestones, so we removed those penalties from the contract.

After that, the contractor was so laid-back about the project that he wouldn't even show up to the job site for days on end. One of the milestones was to have our service-entrance switchgear installed, and the feeders pulled (the subject of this thread), by the end of August. The feeder pulls did not begin until September 8, and were not completed until September 27. The switchgear didn't even arrive on site until September 21. We recently learned that the reason the switchgear was delayed by over a month was because the contractor was holding off on the order to try to negotiate a lower price for himself from the manufacturer.

Did I mention that the contractor took a personal vacation from September 11 to September 19, and did not return to the job site until September 21?

Has anyone counted how many times someone has made the statement that these practices are done all the time in this thread? I know that I read it more than once. How many times and by how many different people does this need to be said? :happysad:

I read them and accepted those opinions. I also read the opinions of those people who agreed I had some legitimate concerns. I continue to welcome opinions supporting either position.

 

[Jon456]

Btw, this is what why we are concerned and what we're hoping to avoid:

Nick in the insulation of one of our original feeders:

Larger hole in the insulation (same feeder) leading to destruction of the aluminum wire:

The insulation on this feeder was damaged when it was pulled into the conduits 15 years ago. As the aluminum corroded, it swelled and split open the insulation. This was one of the phase conductors for our 480V, 3-phase, 1,200A service (the white tape was only to mark the damage; this was not a neutral conductor). The 1/0 EGC in this run was also damaged and had completely severed due to corrosion and electrolysis from the current leaking out of the damaged phase conductor.

 

[USMC1302]

It appears to me that you were set-up to fail. How can you be in charge/supervise this project without knowing exactly what the contract entailed? Without knowing the details, the contractor decides "means/methods". All you can do is report your findings/opinions to your boss. You do mention the contractor was violating specs/engineered plans...was the electrical portion of the project omitted as far as plans/specs or is this a one sheet drawing with some notes? Sounds all fancy with milestones and penalties, but nobody intends to enforce. No pre-bid/pre-construction meetings to give you a chance to clarify expectations. Sounds like a big lesson learned for your company.

 

[iwire]

this type of work comes from the top down. It does not originate with the workers,

Exactly that.

 

[infinity]

...no its not, and you know it. There is no way union electricians are going to supervise laborers and allow them to pull in major feeders for a building, especially when union work is hard to come by these days. Again, as I have stated in my other posts, not all non union contractors operate this way, but this one does!

In some areas of the country this is 100% true especially NY where jusme123 is from, but let's not steer this thread into a union vs. non-union debate. If it heads there it will be closed.

 

[renosteinke]

This quote cuts to the heart of the matter:
"The owner of the facility is not an electrician. The work was put out to bid, and this particular contractor won the bid. He won not only based on price; he also had good credentials. The owner liked that the contractor was an electrical engineer, and not just a businessman."

Went out to bid: You want cheap, you're going to get temps for the mule work. You've just 'filtered out' any Union shop, or skilled crew.

Good Credentials: Really? Then stay inside, out of the way, and be blissful in your ignorance. The guy's reputation suggests he has the experience to exercise his judgement as to how the job is done.

Electrical engineer: Which course at the University covers wire pulls? There's a role for engineers, but they are in no way 'better' or 'superior' to a trade-trained man.

Just a businessman: Running a business is a whole new set of skills from performing a trade. Oddly enough, engineering students get some coaching in this area. Don't confuse 'business' with 'trade' skills.

Just my own take? Well, since the pipes were know to have crud in them, I'd make damn sure they were clean. One little pabble, and the pull becomes infinitely harder. It's also fairly common for there to be breaks and obstructions in such pipes, so I'll bet he did SOMETHING to make sure the pull went well. Maybe he didn't use an 'official' brush and mandrel, but it's his call. He's the guy doing the pulling.

Laying it out on the ground? Generally not an issue, though you do have to make sure you're not also drawing the shrubbery into the pipe. A bunch of guys carrying it? No surprise- the stuff weighs a ton, and the stuff is pretty safe on a man's shoulders.

Using improvised methods when you have a real puller at hand? Seems kind of stupid - but stupidity isn't a crime. Maybe there were other reasons he didn't use the puller.

Megger, or other testing? Considering the amount of power involved, and the scale of the job, that seems prudent - but it's not a requirement. Remember, the contractor has to deal with any call backs. He didn't get that good reputation by leaving folks with problems.

Finally, about that 'not an electrician' remark: Why does every non-electrician think they are qualified to tell the sparky how to do his job? There's a reason they're called SKILLED trades; you can't master them by reading books.

 

[DBugHuntR]

No worries

No worries

As others have said, I have done all the same things at one time, or another. I don't have a problem with dragging wire across the ground, because I often work by myself, and that's the easiest way to lay it out, and watch it while working the other end. It also seems to me that using a vehicle, or other overpowered piece of equipment is actually easier than using a puller in many instances - I don't mind working with safety-conscience people, or unskilled workers, if they can follow directions. I don't think anyone enjoys working with someone who watches and criticizes every move they make, talks to their superiors and questions the methods they use to get the work done. I call those people as I see them - busybodies. If the other some contractor screws something up, it's their responsibility to worry about it and make it right. Unless, of course, you own the project - if not, lighten up a little bit... :blink:

 

[ssilbers]

Lead Member Engineering Staff

Lead Member Engineering Staff

I've been in the business (electrical design & construction) for over 30 years and have seen it all. My general rule is that if you think its wrong it probably is unless someone can prove differently. You get what you pay for. Sounds to me that the contractor is not your top of the line contractor. When their job is done it now becomes your problem. If you have a blowout, its your problem not theirs. Pulling cable over gravel is BAD. I once had a contractor that tried to pull a 1,500' run of 350MCM 5KV cable with his truck. He burned up his transmission before I could stop him. All conduit should be swabbed out to insure that there is at least a clear path with no obstructions. Pulling shieves should be used, what about soaping the cable as it enters the duct? Did they prep the pulling head properly? I guess the bottom line is what was in the RFP and the contract. Good luck.

 

[Jon456]

I don't think anyone enjoys working with someone who watches and criticizes every move they make, talks to their superiors and questions the methods they use to get the work done. I call those people as I see them - busybodies. If the other some contractor screws something up, it's their responsibility to worry about it and make it right. Unless, of course, you own the project - if not, lighten up a little bit... :blink:

My boss "owns" the project (as in, it is on his property and he is the one footing the bill for the work). I work for him and it is my responsibility to help manage the project, assist the contractors, and report any issues or problems: in short, I am the designated "quality control". I take my job seriously; I am not paid to "lighten up". I do not "criticize every move they make"; in fact, I have cut them tremendous slack. However, I expect the contractor -- and his crew -- to do the job correctly in compliance with the NEC, local codes, and accepted industry standards. If I see a worker doing something dangerous or wrong, I will report it to his superior. If the foreman or contractor will not fix the problem, I will elevate the issue to my boss (who obviously has more leverage with the contractor by virtue of holding the purse strings). If that makes me a "busy body", so be it. If the contractor cannot stand honest scrutiny because he is not doing the job correctly, then perhaps he should be in another line of work.

I, for one, have no problems with people watching my work. I'm confident enough in my skills and abilities that I don't have to hide. I'm not perfect and I've made my share of mistakes, but I'm man enough to "own" my mistakes, correct them, and learn from them. And if there is a person more skilled or experienced than I am, then I welcome his observations, advice, and critiques. It is one of the reasons I am here in this forum. The day I stop learning is the day I die.

 

[NetKarts]

xhhw al on the ground is bad, cu is worse

xhhw al on the ground is bad, cu is worse

My opinion, xhhw cu wire left in the sun and dragged on the ground is not good. This insul is not as abrasion resistant as thhn. The wt of the al will be in your favor, as it will have LESS of a tendancy to nick from an edge. But most electricians have done this before, me included.

Sounds to me that the foreman is cutting corners everywhere he can. But require them to megger when complete. This should be in the spec regardless of whether the wire was on the ground or not. Also sounds like this foreman has never had anything blow up on him before, so he is less cautious in his installs. Don't stand in front of the gear when they turn it on, and have an extinguisher close by. Also, sounds like neither your boss nor you are qualified to inspect "large" electrical installs. Follow the money,lol.