Laundry branch circuit

[iwire]

I'll opine that an area that is designated for the use of an iron does not meet the code's language of "areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment." Plugging anything into a receptacle outlet does not constitute "installing" that item.

So in that case neither is a washing machine.

My washing machine simple plugs into electricity, water and sewer, no tools needed.

I suggest you guys basing decisions on the word installed are counting on the fact that your personal view of installing is the NFPAs view of installing.


Charlie B, please check out the above ground pool thread, I brought this topic of installed up. . http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=177867&p=1753166#post1753166

 

[wwhitney]

Plugging anything into a receptacle outlet does not constitute "installing" that item.

Grist for the mill: the first google hit for the word 'install' is the mirriam-webster.com definition page; the first listed definition on that page is the 'simple definition':

to make (a machine, a service, etc.) ready to be used in a certain place

Seems like plugging in an iron makes it ready to be used in the vicinity of that receptacle. Google also offers a definition:

place or fix (equipment or machinery) in position ready for use.

This includes the idea of fixing in place, but it is optional. Equipment can be installed without being fixed in place.

Does the NEC or the style guide specify a particular dictionary to reference for terms not defined within the NEC?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[charlie b]

So in that case neither is a washing machine. My washing machine simple plugs into electricity, water and sewer, no tools needed.

What I said is that the simple act of plugging a cord cap into a receptacle outlet is not enough to call it “installing,” in the sense of article 90.2(A). A couple years ago, I paid the big box store to have one of their employees “install” my new washing machine. That person did more than attach hoses and plug in the cord. He replaced the old hoses, connected the power cord to the machine, adjusted the legs to make the machine level in all directions, and ran a test. In addition, that is what that person does as a living. Nobody plugs in table lamps for a living. I see that as being different enough from plugging in a table lamp for me to call one “installing” and not the other.

I suggest you guys basing decisions on the word installed are counting on the fact that your personal view of installing is the NFPAs view of installing.

And you are counting on them not being the same. Since the NFPA did not see fit to clearly state their views, you and I are left without authoritative support for our views.

Charlie B, please check out the above ground pool thread, I brought this topic of installed up.

I posted a question for you on that thread.

 

[gadfly56]

I agree, to note laundry equipment would separate washer/dryers from countertop & gen recepts in a laundry room as per (F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment.

So, let's say I have a room, 10' x 10', with one door off a hallway. I enter the room, and on the right wall is a washing machine, and a slop sink with a sink pump. On the left wall is a dryer and next to it is a fixed-in-place table for sorting and folding clothes, and on the far wall is an outlet about 48" AFF and space for setting up an ironing board. How many laundry areas are there?

 

[iwire]

Let me start out by saying we are just talking here, if I come across harsh I apologize now.

What I said is that the simple act of plugging a cord cap into a receptacle outlet is not enough to call it “installing,” in the sense of article 90.2(A).

I understood that, yet it seems you are saying the additional act of plugging in a hose or two makes it an installation. I cannot get on board with that. No tools needed for any of those connections so I do not see a distinction.

A couple years ago, I paid the big box store to have one of their employees “install” my new washing machine. That person did more than attach hoses and plug in the cord. He replaced the old hoses, connected the power cord to the machine, adjusted the legs to make the machine level in all directions, and ran a test. I

Those are all choices you made, you rather pay then do it yourself. I am getting there too. In my case I handle the placement, connection and on going maintenance of the washer.

In my opinion I installed the unit, and if I place a lamp on the table and plug it in I have installed that as well for the purposes of 90.2

n addition, that is what that person does as a living. nobody plugs in table lamps for a living.

Exclusively table lamps no? But nobody exclusively installs clothes washers either.

 

[charlie b]

Let me start out by saying we are just talking here, if I come across harsh I apologize now.

Thanks, but there was no need. I know that we disagree on some technical issues, this being one of them. But I respect your knowledge and experience, and I value your opinions.

 

[mwm1752]

So, let's say I have a room, 10' x 10', with one door off a hallway. I enter the room, and on the right wall is a washing machine, and a slop sink with a sink pump. On the left wall is a dryer and next to it is a fixed-in-place table for sorting and folding clothes, and on the far wall is an outlet about 48" AFF and space for setting up an ironing board. How many laundry areas are there?

I'm still confused on how Iwire would treat the situation I started with.

 

[iwire]

I'm still confused on how Iwire would treat the situation I started with.

Well don't put too much on my answer.

So, if you have your laundry branch circuit for the washer which serves as the one required branch circuit -- are you allowed to have a laundry counter top receptacle circuit that also serves the laundry lighting? & is it required to be 20 amp?

Personally I would say yes you should be able to do that as it is in addition to the required one.

BUT... there is so much vagueness in the code sections regarding this I think it is impossible to say how a specific AHJ is going to look at it.

I would either run it by the AHJ first or keep the lighting separate.

 

[al hildenbrand]

... there is so much vagueness in the code sections regarding this I think it is impossible to say how a specific AHJ is going to look at it.

:thumbsup:

A most diplomatic approach to this "rabbit hole" in the Holy Writ. My first response to the OP scenario ultimately boiled down to the same approach:

For the OP, it is my experience and opinion (from the field), . . .

 

[mwm1752]

Well don't put too much on my answer.



Personally I would say yes you should be able to do that as it is in addition to the required one.

BUT... there is so much vagueness in the code sections regarding this I think it is impossible to say how a specific AHJ is going to look at it.

I would either run it by the AHJ first or keep the lighting separate.

Ty - the thread was meant for opinions

 

[Griswald]

Where does it state 120 volt. Would a 30 amp receptacle 240 volt for a stackable washer/ dryer meet the requirements.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Where does it state 120 volt. Would a 30 amp receptacle 240 volt for a stackable washer/ dryer meet the requirements.

210. 11 states a 20 amp but 210.52 states 125V since 210.11(C)(2) REFERENCES 210.52 then IMO it must be 120V or 125V to be specific--LOL

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of
branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least
one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F).
This circuit shall have no other outlets.

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle
outlets.

 

[GoldDigger]

210. 11 states a 20 amp but 210.52 states 125V since 210.11(C)(2) REFERENCES 210.52 then IMO it must be 120V or 125V to be specific--LOL

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:
Although it is a receptacle outlet in the laundry area, the 240V dryer or combo receptacle (or just outlet) is not THE laundry area receptacle outlet required by the Code. And therefore the branch circuit feeding it is not the circuit specifically mentioned by 210.11(C)(2).

It may be one of the "other parts" branch circuits referred to in passing though.