Laundry calculation
- Thread starter crtemp
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
The way I read it it only applies if you have an electric clothes dryer. I am not sure a laundry is required at all in a dwelling.
I suspect if you have a laundry it will require either an electric connection or gas connection for the dryer. But probably not both.
The house in question does not have a laundry room
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
This is trickier than I expected. 210.52(F) requires a receptacle outlet for laundry, but it includes two exceptions. If you meet one of the exceptions, then 210.11(C)(2) will not require you to include a circuit for the laundry. That brings us to 220.54. It includes the words, “for each dryer served.” Thus, if you meet one of the exceptions, then there will be no dryer served, and you don’t have to include 5000 VA in the load calculation.
But I would be careful with using this reasoning. The present owner might not allow laundry in the building, but the next owner might. My engineer’s instinct would be to toss the 5000 VA into the calculation, and see the extent to which it might alter the final result. If it makes no difference to the service equipment rating, then I would leave it in. If it changes the service from a 1000 amp to an 1200 amp, then I would have a conversation with the owner.
But I would be careful with using this reasoning. The present owner might not allow laundry in the building, but the next owner might. My engineer’s instinct would be to toss the 5000 VA into the calculation, and see the extent to which it might alter the final result. If it makes no difference to the service equipment rating, then I would leave it in. If it changes the service from a 1000 amp to an 1200 amp, then I would have a conversation with the owner.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
That's not quite the same thing as saying you meet one of the two exceptions I mention above. Take a look at the wording of those two exceptions, and let us know what you think.
I don’t think 210.52(F) would even apply to my situation. There is no laundry room in the home. You would only be able to put a washer and dryer in the garage.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Are you saying this house is already built? If so, then what planned action has you performing a load calculation? If this is a new house (not yet built, and only in the planning stages), then does it meet one of the exceptions?
It’s a long story. Basically we are trying to use an existing 200 amp service on a house to be converted down to 125 amps and have a meter pack feed a detached building with a 100 amp breaker that will be rented out. The only way I can get it to calculate is getting rid of the dryer. The inspector is saying I can’t do that. I must include it in the calculation even though the existing washer and dryer are in the garage and they are going away.
The total load I’m coming up with is 122 amps for the house and 77 amps for the new building.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
It seems to me you are conflating the 210.52(F) 120V receptacle for a laundry (that 210.11(C)(2) says has to be on a 20 amp circuit, and 220.52(B) says has to be calculated at 1500VA) with a 240V 30A receptacle for an electric dryer. I see nothing that requires the installation of an electric dryer or a circuit for an electric dryer. 220.54 simply says that if an electric clothes dryer is served, it has to be calculated at a minimum of 5000 VA. So no electric dryer, no 5000 VA (but still 1500 VA for the laundry circuit).
Cheers, Wayne
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
That sounds to me like a 2-family dwelling. You can meet exception 2 to 210.52(F) by having the owner declare that laundry is not to be allowed on site. That brings you to the reasoning I first posted, from which you can conclude that you don't need to include, in your calculation, a dryer when there is no dryer to be served.
By the way, are the 122 and 77 amp values with, or without, the dryer?
By the way, are the 122 and 77 amp values with, or without, the dryer?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
A dryer circuit is not a laundry circuit. Yes you are required to have a laundry circuit (washer) and you have to calculate 1500 va for it but you do not have to use 5000 va for a dryer.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I would argue this. 210.52(F) requires an outlet in areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment. if there is no laundry, no outlet is required. If there is no laundry, there is no dryer, so no dryer outlet required.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Not my intent. I was using a path of reasoning that led me to conclude that it was OK for there not to be a dryer, on the basis that there was no need to have a laundry circuit in the first place.
I agree with this.
Not necessarily, as I have already said.
MyCleveland
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Wayne
I never had that take on 220.54...for one-family.
Every example in Annex D for one-family includes the 5000w.
220.54...ending the sentence with "for each dryer served.", I can see how you get there though, but disagree.
The write-up in handbook repeats the sentence, in general, without the "for each dryer served".
Curious on others take on this.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
+1.
I see the wording changed in 2014, the 2011 wording implies a receptacle is required for laundry whether or not there is a laundry area. [Edit: this reasoning also means the Exceptions are redundant in the current version of 210.52(F).]
Cheers, Wayne
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Right, I should have said the 1500VA is required if there is a laundry area.
Cheers, Wayne
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
There are only a few cases where you the requirement for a laundry is permitted to be omitted. Obviously, in those case 1500va would not be needed.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
I believe that changed with the 2014 NEC:
The 2011 wording for 210.52(F): "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry." Meaning, unless you meet one of the exceptions, you need a laundry receptacle outlet, even if you don't have a laundry.
The 2017 wording for 210.52(F) (no gray markings, so presumably the same in 2014): "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment". Meaning, if you don't want a laundry receptacle, don't designate any areas for the installation of laundry equipment.
Cheers, Wayne
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Which edition of NEC applies. As just mentioned a couple posts back - 2014 seems to require you to figure in 1500 VA for laundry unless you meet exceptions, even if you don't have a "laundry area".
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