Laundry calculation

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wwhitney said:
I believe that changed with the 2014 NEC:

The 2011 wording for 210.52(F): "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry." Meaning, unless you meet one of the exceptions, you need a laundry receptacle outlet, even if you don't have a laundry.

The 2017 wording for 210.52(F) (no gray markings, so presumably the same in 2014): "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment". Meaning, if you don't want a laundry receptacle, don't designate any areas for the installation of laundry equipment.

Cheers, Wayne
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Well if that is the intent they should change the answer in Annex D for the first question, at least. They still use 1500 watts for the laundry circuit.
 
charlie b said:
That sounds to me like a 2-family dwelling. You can meet exception 2 to 210.52(F) by having the owner declare that laundry is not to be allowed on site. That brings you to the reasoning I first posted, from which you can conclude that you don't need to include, in your calculation, a dryer when there is no dryer to be served.

By the way, are the 122 and 77 amp values with, or without, the dryer?
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Without the dryers
 
crtemp said:
Is it required to include this load on a service calculation in a dwelling if will not contain a dryer? 220.54

I have someone telling me that I have to include it no matter what.
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crtemp said:
Is it required to include this load on a service calculation in a dwelling if will not contain a dryer? 220.54

I have someone telling me that I have to include it no matter what.
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Greetings,

Based alone on your statements I will provide an opinion and based on some other comments.

1) it is my opinion that since you are talking about a one- family dwelling, the laundry branch circuit demanded by 210.11 (C)(2) is required and the 1500VA is required by 220.52 (B).

2) The exceptions in 210.52 (F) do not apply in your single family dwelling. I find it far fetched to proclaim a one- family dwelling would not have some designated place (even if the garage) for laundry equipment.

3) I do not see where you are required to have a Dryer. However, if you do it shall be taken at 5000VA or nameplate rating, which ever is larger.

I can see however where an inspector would question your motive. Clearly in the garage (not uncommon) there is a hookup for a washer and dryer which tells me you do have a dryer and the 5000 VA or nameplate , whichever was greater was figured in. Now, because it serves your agenda the dwelling unit no longer needs a dryer...hmmm...i may question that as well but to each their own.

On a side note, when i have ever taught classes on sizing services for one-family dwellings i always take into account the dryer load unless their is a known gas dryer in the equation. Again just my thoughts on it....

Rememeber if the appliance is not there it can't be figured in. So theoretically, if no dryer then no value to figure in would be my opinion. But again i always figure the dryer in with single one-family home but thats just me.

Notice also that 210 doesn't mandate a dryer circuit....just sayin.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Greetings,
1) it is my opinion that since you are talking about a one- family dwelling, the laundry branch circuit demanded by 210.11 (C)(2) is required and the 1500VA is required by 220.52 (B).
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The 2011-2017 NECs all have the same version of 210.11(C)(2): "In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F)." However, as discussed above, the 2014 and 2017 versions of 210.52(F) do not require any laundry receptacle outlets if you don't "designate" any areas "for the installation of laundry equipment."

So in that case, how do you interpret 210.11(C)(2)'s call for at least one branch circuit to serve zero receptacles? I would say that is nonsensical and that zero branch circuits are required, meaning no 1500VA allowance is required.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The 2011-2017 NECs all have the same version of 210.11(C)(2): "In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F)." However, as discussed above, the 2014 and 2017 versions of 210.52(F) do not require any laundry receptacle outlets if you don't "designate" any areas "for the installation of laundry equipment."

So in that case, how do you interpret 210.11(C)(2)'s call for at least one branch circuit to serve zero receptacles? I would say that is nonsensical and that zero branch circuits are required, meaning no 1500VA allowance is required.

Cheers, Wayne
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Here is where we can agree to disagree. I stated the issue was with a one family dwelling and the exceptions to 210.52 (F) do not apply to my scenario to the response. So i would consider all one family dwellings to have such an area.....however, you are free to your own opinion and I shall retain mine.
 
See now....you have to look at this quote from the OP.

"The only way I can get it to calculate is getting rid of the dryer. The inspector is saying I can’t do that. I must include it in the calculation even though the existing washer and dryer are in the garage and they are going away."

So a house that had a washer and dryer in an area that was indeed designated now is to be "undesignated" in order to meet a new load calculation. We mixing many things in here but the exceptions to 210.52 (F) do not apply as I saw nothing in the OP's original post (#1) that stated it was a multi-family or other than a one-family dwelling.

So i was asked why so the Informative Annexes not to mention nearly all example calculations known show the use if 5000 VA. That's an easy one...because we want to show you how to do the calculations and all one family dwellings will have such circuits so it is just taken for granted as such.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
the exceptions to 210.52 (F) do not apply to my scenario
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The issue I see isn't the exceptions, it is the 2014 change in the language of 210.52(F) to require laundry receptacles only in "areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment." If I don't want any laundry equipment, and don't want to install any laundry receptacles, I'm free under the new language not to designate any area for the installation of laundry equipment.

If I were more motivated, and the TerraView software wasn't so unfamiliar, I would look up the track record of that 2014 change in language.

Cheers, Wayne
 
MasterTheNEC said:
So a house that had a washer and dryer in an area that was indeed designated now is to be "undesignated" in order to meet a new load calculation.
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I can agree that in order to "undesignate" the area, the washer and dryer should be removed, and the water supplies and drain should be capped. I would say that having functioning laundry hookups would count as designating the area.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The issue I see isn't the exceptions, it is the 2014 change in the language of 210.52(F) to require laundry receptacles only in "areas designated for the installation of laundry equipment." If I don't want any laundry equipment, and don't want to install any laundry receptacles, I'm free under the new language not to designate any area for the installation of laundry equipment.

If I were more motivated, and the TerraView software wasn't so unfamiliar, I would look up the track record of that 2014 change in language.

Cheers, Wayne
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Easier for me to just agree to disagree with you because i respond to the questions posted. The OP has a dedicated area in my mind. I have no concerns that it happens to be a garage also.

Ultimately it is the inspector he will have to convince.
 
However, I think we may have strayed from the original question. Is the Dryer 5000 VA or Nameplate, which ever is greater required for the service or feeder calculation if no dryer is present.

If no Dryer branch circuit is installed and thus no dryer to be considered then no additional VA to be considered. The laundry circuit that may or may not be required is irrelevant to the question.

But let me just say this.....i have wired many homes in my early years (yes i know i am soft now guys, no need to remind me with cheap shots) and I never did one that didn't have a dryer circuit so the additional VA was always figured in.
 
The owner of this property is more than willing to ditch the washer and dryer in the garage if it will accommodate not installing a upgraded service. The house is just a rental and he can’t justify the cost of upgrading when all he needs to do is simply not offer a laundry. It would envolve digging ditches, cutting concrete and upgrading the transformer at the utility. I can only imagine what that would cost. The no laundry option is the best option for him.
 
crtemp said:
The owner of this property is more than willing to ditch the washer and dryer in the garage if it will accommodate not installing a upgraded service. The house is just a rental and he can’t justify the cost of upgrading when all he needs to do is simply not offer a laundry. It would envolve digging ditches, cutting concrete and upgrading the transformer at the utility. I can only imagine what that would cost. The no laundry option is the best option for him.
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I think at this point the only opinion that will matter is the local AHJ. You may be able to convince the AHJ by removing the existing branch circuit for the dryer completely and build your argument around the position of "If no dryer circuit exists then no load need be considered". However, he/she is the one you need to convince of this position.

The exceptions in 210.52 (F) are no help to you in my opinion.

Good Luck!
 
MasterTheNEC said:
I think at this point the only opinion that will matter is the local AHJ. You may be able to convince the AHJ by removing the existing branch circuit for the dryer completely and build your argument around the position of "If no dryer circuit exists then no load need be considered". However, he/she is the one you need to convince of this position.

The exceptions in 210.52 (F) are no help to you in my opinion.

Good Luck!
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The code is the code in my option. I certainly hope it doesn’t come down to luck.
 
MyCleveland said:
Maybe hope is not lost yet.

Tap out your loads for each building or attach a PDF and possibly someone can help you get your totals down even with the 5000 included for the dryer.
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Main house
1232 sq ft
54 amps electric furnace
10 amp dishwasher
4500 watt water heater
12.1 kw range

outbuilding
420 sq ft
15 amp ductless heat pump
4500 watt water heater
12.1 kw range
 
Outbuilding....only way I get your 77a is from adding up your HW, range at 240 and the HP at at 120. This leaves no allocation for lights or any misc plugs.

If I put in an allowance for the later I get 92a.
 
Just tell the inspector you're going to get a gas dryer (or a clothesline), poof, 5000 VA gone like a fart in a hurricane. There is no law saying you have to have an electric dryer in a residence
 
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