laundry room outlets

[dnem]

Indulge me while I repost.

I think I might do the same from the underground Romex thread

I think some people believe the code was written as a restriction on inspectors that limits them to enforcement according to the precise individual meaning of the words used in any particular section. But contractors can slide thru as long as they're close to what the wording says.

 

[dnem]

You seem to think that you know what they meant even though they did not say it.

I think they said what they needed to say. I don't think the words "clotheswasher" or "clothesdryer" are needed. What they say is clear.

I do think that it's unfortunate that they didn't think it necessary to add the word "equipment" to the wording of the code book. Having it in their comments isn't good enough.

2-98 The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).

David

 

[M. D.]

Please don't take this the wrong way , I like this forum it makes me think and I get to see the opinions of many who are related in some way to my trade, but there is never an absolute answer. I guess part of the reason is that the NEC is not a design or a how to manual.

I don't know about you folks , but I don't want it to become one.

I think it is clear enough as it is .
In my experience it has been easy to to determine where the laundry work area begins and ends , in those work areas there is a laundry branch circuit with receptacle outlets installed to serve the equipment.


In twenty 20 years of working in this trade ,mostly residential, this has never been an issue for me.

 

[dnem]

Let's go a step further. The iron in the dedicated space is hardwired.

What do we do?

According to 210.11 "branch circuits must be provided to supply loads calculated in accordance with 220.10". 220.10 refers to 220.14. 220.14(A) talks about the providing for the ampere load of a specific appliance.

But I don't see that the 12gauge 20a, no hardwired lights, no other room/area served restrictions of 210.11(C)(2) or 210.52(F) extend beyond receptacle loads.

Does anybody else have anything to add to this ?

David

 

[dnem]

Suppose a free-standing ironing board were on the plans, next to a narrow closet that you suspect is supposed to house the ironing board when not in use. Suppose the closest receptacle was 4' away, and on a dedicated 15A branch circuit.

Pass or fail?

In my jurisdiction it would pass because we don't require or even look at prints on electrical inspections on residential permits.

I would never know that a "free-standing ironing board were on the plans".

"Just getting a feel for your opinion"
Let me restate something that I've posted before:

When I consider part 1, I don't think about parts 2 or 3. When I consider part 2, it's based on part 1 but doesn't include the concept in part 3. And finally, part 3 includes the whole thing.

part 1) What does the code actually say ?
part 2) Is there a realistic shock or fire hazard involved ?
part 3) Is it a big deal ? On this step, I try to bring in opinions from my fellow inspectors at my office, posters on this site, and maybe other inspectors that I can call.

Just getting a feel for your opinion. I agree with you that they intend to get the washer on that required circuit. I believe the words fall far short of enforceability on that point.

We've been talking about part 1 on this thread so far. The answers change if we get into parts 2 & 3. For a part 1 discussion, I would have to disagree with your comment, "I believe the words fall far short of enforceability on that point". I believe the code words are enforceable for a clotheswasher or an iron.

David

 

[dnem]

Please don't take this the wrong way , I like this forum it makes me think and I get to see the opinions of many who are related in some way to my trade, but there is never an absolute answer. I guess part of the reason is that the NEC is not a design or a how to manual.

I don't know about you folks , but I don't want it to become one.

I think it is clear enough as it is .
In my experience it has been easy to to determine where the laundry work area begins and ends , in those work areas there is a laundry branch circuit with receptacle outlets installed to serve the equipment.


In twenty 20 years of working in this trade ,mostly residential, this has never been an issue for me.

"In twenty 20 years of working in this trade ,mostly residential, this has never been an issue for me."

How things work in the real world is important. The way we handle the laundry room portion of a rough inspection results in it never being an issue with any contractor in our county jurisdiction.

This is how we handle it:

When we see a second (or third or fourth) receptacle on the same circuit as the clotheswasher, we assume they are plugs designated for laundry usage (ironing etc). As long as the circuit doesn?t leave the laundry area or include hardwired lights, then the circuit complies with 210.11(C).

When we see a circuit other than the clotheswasher (gas dryer) circuit come into the laundry area and supply the second (or third or fourth) receptacle, we assume those plugs are general purpose which can be on 20a or 15a and include hardwired lights.

The only thing we?re looking for is that the circuit supplying the clotheswasher (gas dryer) is 20a, doesn?t supply outlets outside of the laundry area, and doesn?t supply hardwired lighting outlets.

But as far as an code discussion goes, threads like this keep the mind sharp and tend to slice away bad and unsupportable ways of thinking about issues. There's a benefit that goes beyond the specific item talked about. Over time each person in the various different conversations is forced to adjust their view and their approach to one that can hold up to the intense type of scrutiny, analyses, and debate that will result from their posted positions.

I've thought things out thoroughly before and then posted. And I've posted after barely giving the subject a thought. In the later situation, I walk away wondering what unexpected angle I'm going to get blasted from and how badly. I wonder if I'll have to eat my words or not. Thankfully I haven't been forced to do that much eating.

In the big picture, it's very constructive to put your words to intense scrutiny.

David

 

[George Stolz]

Why then did they not say it?

Do these CMP members live in a vacuum?

Do they not know the meaning of the words they do or do not chose?

Do they not know that ECs and Inspectors will be dissecting the words they do choose.

Bob, this is the same CMP that took both sides of the appliance garage issue in the 2005. Sometimes, they do put the blinders on and pretend there's nothing wrong. They want to see receptacles serving counters in front of appliance garages, but don't seem to have a clue as to how we're supposed to get that done.

CMP-5 stands behind the 25 ohm rule, despite years of people clearly not getting it, ignoring it, misapplying it, and requesting it's deletion.

Not picking on you George I just don't understand why we are looking for requirements that are not they.

I hear you loud and clear. I don't understand some of the items they shoot down, for reasons we could only guess at.

My gut tells me they intend for the washer to be on it. I feel they don't realize how much their wording counts, and how it affects us in the end.

Then again, I've had almost as many unsubstantiated requirements (interpretation) hurled my way as I have from the actual words in the NEC, so the CMP's contribution is only a small one, in the end.

 

[George Stolz]

David, one other point I have: what is the difference in the wording requiring one receptacle per unfinished space, and the laundry requirement?

Using your train of thought, we are installing that receptacle for the car, no?

 

[George Stolz]

I've thought things out thoroughly before and then posted. And I've posted after barely giving the subject a thought. In the later situation, I walk away wondering what unexpected angle I'm going to get blasted from and how badly. I wonder if I'll have to eat my words or not. Thankfully I haven't been forced to do that much eating.

To be honest, I was hoping you'd forget about the receptacle portion of the laundry requirement (hard-wired iron) - unfortunately for me, you were in slow-reading mode when you replied.

 

[JohnE]

After reading and rereading this thread, I'm still not sure what exactly what arguments are being made and by whom. I'll have to re-reread when I have more time.

 

[hillbilly]

Tonight when I get home I'm going to start at the beginning and try to digest this post. At that point I'll........Drum Roll...........Give a opinion. It'll probably be worth about 2 cents, but it won't cost anything. A real, bonafide bargain.
steve

 

[charlie b]

After reading and rereading this thread, I'm still not sure what exactly what arguments are being made and by whom.

Nor am I.

Is this turning into one of those "The grass is green." "No you're wrong, the sky is blue." kinds of arguments?

 

[charlie b]

When we see a second (or third or fourth) receptacle on the same circuit as the clotheswasher, we assume they are plugs designated for laundry usage (ironing etc). As long as the circuit doesn?t leave the laundry area or include hardwired lights, then the circuit complies with 210.11(C).

I don't disagree in principle here, and I don't think Bob (iwire) would either. I believe the point of disagreement has to do with calling it the "clotheswasher receptacle," as opposed to the "laundry receptacle." But I will make an attempt at clarifying that later.

When we see a circuit other than the clotheswasher (gas dryer) circuit come into the laundry area and supply the second (or third or fourth) receptacle, we assume those plugs are general purpose which can be on 20a or 15a and include hardwired lights.

I agree with this as well, and I think Bob would agree too.

OK. Now let's talk about TRAMPS!

Let me presume that my new house is being built, and the plumbers are done with their work. Let me presume that there is a laundry sink (deep tub) that is close to hot and cold water piping and faucets. Sorta sounds like a good place for a washing machine, don't it? But I haven't bought the washer or dryer yet, so they are not in that room.

Let's say there is a receptacle close to those faucets. Let's call it TRAMPS, for short (i.e., The Receptacle Adjacent (to) My Pipes (and) Sink). Three situations:

? Situation 1: Suppose TRAMPS is powered by a 20 amp circuit that has nothing else on it other than a second receptacle in the same room. Suppose there is another (i.e., a third) receptacle in the room that shares a circuit with other basement lights and plugs. Suppose I buy a washer and plug it into TRAMPS.

? Situation 2: The second situation has the same wiring, but I choose to plug my new washer into that other, third receptacle (i.e., the one sharing a circuit with other basement lights and plugs).

? Situation 3: The third situation has different wiring. Suppose that TRAMPS is powered by a circuit that also powers basement lights and plugs. Recall that we call this one "TRAMPS" because it is the one close to the two faucets and the sink. Suppose that there is a 20 amp circuit that provides power to one receptacle about 10 feet away from TRAMPS, and that supplies no other outlets.

Question: Is any of these three situations a code violation?

My answer is "No" to all three. I would predict that Bob will have the same answer. I would further predict that DNEM's answers would be "No, No, and Yes," in that order.

Have I clarified and pinned down the precise nature of the disagreements here?

 

[dnem]

After reading and rereading this thread, I'm still not sure what exactly what arguments are being made and by whom. I'll have to re-reread when I have more time.

Tonight when I get home I'm going to start at the beginning and try to digest this post. At that point I'll........Drum Roll...........Give a opinion. It'll probably be worth about 2 cents, but it won't cost anything. A real, bonafide bargain.
steve

Nor am I.

Is this turning into one of those "The grass is green." "No you're wrong, the sky is blue." kinds of arguments?

This thread really hit it?s central point of argument here:
http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?p=595659#post595659

David strictly speaking the NEC does not require that.

Put the required laundry outlet in the laundry area and than I can supply the washer with an optional 15 amp circuit.

Don't know why someone would go that route but it is not prohibited.

David

 

[dnem]

David, one other point I have: what is the difference in the wording requiring one receptacle per unfinished space, and the laundry requirement?

Using your train of thought, we are installing that receptacle for the car, no?

Using the code panels train of thought, no the receptacle is not for the car because the car just occupies the garage it isn't "garage equipment".

2-98 The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).

Now if electric cars that need charged at home become more common place, then the code panel will have to address that subject.

David

 

[dnem]

OK. Now let's talk about TRAMPS!

Let me presume that my new house is being built, and the plumbers are done with their work. Let me presume that there is a laundry sink (deep tub) that is close to hot and cold water piping and faucets. Sorta sounds like a good place for a washing machine, don't it? But I haven't bought the washer or dryer yet, so they are not in that room.

Let's say there is a receptacle close to those faucets. Let's call it TRAMPS, for short (i.e., The Receptacle Adjacent (to) My Pipes (and) Sink). Three situations:

? Situation 1: Suppose TRAMPS is powered by a 20 amp circuit that has nothing else on it other than a second receptacle in the same room. Suppose there is another (i.e., a third) receptacle in the room that shares a circuit with other basement lights and plugs. Suppose I buy a washer and plug it into TRAMPS.

? Situation 2: The second situation has the same wiring, but I choose to plug my new washer into that other, third receptacle (i.e., the one sharing a circuit with other basement lights and plugs).

? Situation 3: The third situation has different wiring. Suppose that TRAMPS is powered by a circuit that also powers basement lights and plugs. Recall that we call this one "TRAMPS" because it is the one close to the two faucets and the sink. Suppose that there is a 20 amp circuit that provides power to one receptacle about 10 feet away from TRAMPS, and that supplies no other outlets.

Question: Is any of these three situations a code violation?

My answer is "No" to all three. I would predict that Bob will have the same answer. I would further predict that DNEM's answers would be "No, No, and Yes," in that order.

Have I clarified and pinned down the precise nature of the disagreements here?

Yes, my answers are No, No, & Yes

Situation 1 is, of course, No
Situation 2 is No because violations are installation not usage. As long as a "laundry" receptacle is properly provided, your obligation as installor is complete.
Situation 3 is Yes because the laundry plug isn't in the dedicated space for the clotheswasher which is determined by waterlines.

David

 

[dnem]

I don't disagree in principle here, and I don't think Bob (iwire) would either. I believe the point of disagreement has to do with calling it the "clotheswasher receptacle," as opposed to the "laundry receptacle." But I will make an attempt at clarifying that later.

You're pretty close to the point of disagreement but not exactly there.

I believe the disagreement is whether or not the word laundry is defined by usage so that the plugs for specific pieces of equipment can be required to be on the laundry circuit.

David

 

[charlie b]

Situation 3 is Yes because the laundry plug isn't in the dedicated space for the clotheswasher which is determined by waterlines.

I think that is the right way to do things. But I think you are going too far by using the phrase, "dedicated space for the clotheswasher," because the NEC couldn't care less where the pipes are run.

But I believe Bob's point (and I agree with him here) is that the words in the NEC, as written, do not require what you are suggesting. As far as the written word is concerned, Situation 3 is not a code violation.

Let me be specific. If the HO puts the washer close to the receptacle that is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and if the HO has to run an extra 10 feet of hot water, cold water, and discharge water hoses, in order to reach the faucets and the sink, the NEC would be perfectly satisfied. There is a 20 amp circuit that provides power to one receptacle in that room and has no other outlets, and that satisfies the NEC. The NEC does not require the receptacle to be near any pipes, faucets, or sinks. As Bob said much earlier, I can't think why a HO might want to do that, but I believe the NEC does not forbid it.

 

[bikeindy]

I think that is the right way to do things. But I think you are going too far by using the phrase, "dedicated space for the clotheswasher," because the NEC couldn't care less where the pipes are run.

But I believe Bob's point (and I agree with him here) is that the words in the NEC, as written, do not require what you are suggesting. As far as the written word is concerned, Situation 3 is not a code violation.

Let me be specific. If the HO puts the washer close to the receptacle that is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, and if the HO has to run an extra 10 feet of hot water, cold water, and discharge water hoses, in order to reach the faucets and the sink, the NEC would be perfectly satisfied. There is a 20 amp circuit that provides power to one receptacle in that room and has no other outlets, and that satisfies the NEC. The NEC does not require the receptacle to be near any pipes, faucets, or sinks. As Bob said much earlier, I can't think why a HO might want to do that, but I believe the NEC does not forbid it.

I agree with charlie here, but there is no way I would put any thing but the dedicated outlet where the washer is sure to be. even though most washers will run fine on a 15 amp circuit with many other GP receptacles on it, as proven by the washers I have had in my 1925 home. I won't do it because David will walk in and fail it and I don't have time to argue with him. The drywallers are pulling up to the job site because the GC has a schedule to meet.

 

[M. D.]

First, it must be understood that the NEC provides the requirements for the location of laundry receptacle outlets and how these outlets are to be supplied, but it cannot control how these receptacle(s) are used by the owner/occupant. Section 210.50(C) is a general requirement that applies to receptacles for any cord-and-plug connected appliance regardless of the type of occupancy in which the appliance is installed. Laundry equipment is simply used as an example of the types of equipment covered by this requirement. The purpose of the requirement is to ensure that there is a receptacle close enough to the appliance so that it can be directly plugged in without an extension cord.Section 210.52(F) requires the installation of at least one receptacle outlet for the laundry area. This requirement applies to all dwelling units, not just one-family dwellings. There are two exceptions that modify this requirement for other than one-family dwellings. If one outlet is installed, it must be installed within six feet of the appliance location per 210.50(C). The location of the one required receptacle outlet is typically quite easy to determine by using the plumbing connections for the washing machine as a benchmark. These two NEC requirements provide for a least one receptacle outlet located within six feet of the washing machine. In many cases this is the only outlet provided in the laundry area. This has led to the incorrect assumption that the laundry circuit required by 210.11(C)(2) is dedicated to the washing machine and no other receptacle outlets are permitted to be connected to that 20-ampere circuit. The receptacle installed at the outlet for the washing machine can have either a single or a multiple receptacle configuration; this is not required by the NEC to be an individual branch circuit.
Generally, the washing machine receptacle outlet installed to meet the requirement of 210.50(C) is located behind the appliance, so once the washer is in place, it cannot be easily accessed. Keeping in mind that most residential washing machines have a rating that is well under 10 amperes, at least 50 percent of the required circuit is available for other laundry equipment loads. Those other loads include gas dryers, irons, and similar laundry appliances. In order to meet the requirement of 210.50(C) for these other appliances, it may be necessary and is often desirable to locate a receptacle that can be conveniently accessed particularly in the case of an iron. Therefore it can be concluded that 210.11(C)(2) permits the laundry branch circuit to supply more than one receptacle outlet in the laundry area. The purpose of these receptacle outlets is to provide power for cord-and-plug connected laundry equipment.
Some laundry areas only provide enough square footage to accommodate the primary laundry appliances, the washer and dryer. Others may have enough area to accommodate the primary appliances plus an ironing board. The NEC provisions specify where it is required to locate receptacle outlets for the appliances that will be used in the laundry area and how the circuit to these receptacles is to be arranged. These requirements provide for adequate circuit capacity and receptacle location in order that all of the laundry appliances that will be used in that laundry area can be directly connected to a permanently installed receptacle. As with the required receptacle outlets in a kitchen that are supplied by the small appliance branch circuits, the NEC accommodates the use that will occur in the typical dwelling unit.
Compiled by Jeff Sargent & the NFPA electrical engineering team at necdigest