Leaders used as raceways

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pierre

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Westchester County, New York
The situation is, when installing a branch circuit(s) from either the basement or first floor level of a building to an attic space, and either one is too lazy or cannot find a route to the attic within the building, the cable assembly is run on the outside of the building with the HVAC lineset inside a 'leader' (a leader is usually used as the downspout from gutters for water dispersal).

Is this a permitted method as far as code is concerned? Do the inspectors in your area permit this? What code references would you cite?

Pierre
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

I agree this should be a last resort. Keep in mind that this is not a dry location so UF or SER would be the requirement. Other than that I can't think of a reason the NEC would prohibit this.

-Hal

[ February 28, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

It sounds to me like the downspout is being used as a raceway. Is a downspout a listed or even an approved raceway?

I'm intereseted to see where this topic goes...this quite a unique question.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Does the cable pose a greater hazard if outside or inside the rain spout?

I would demo, slant drill, and fish cable to the attic before even thinking of running on the exterior, regardless of legal status.

I am an artist with joint compound and tape. :p
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

225.10 Wiring on Buildings.
The installation of outside wiring on surfaces of buildings shall be permitted for circuits of not over 600 volts, nominal, as open wiring on insulators, as multiconductor cable, as Type MC cable, as Type MI cable, as messenger supported wiring, in rigid metal conduit, in intermediate metal conduit, in rigid nonmetallic conduit, in cable trays, as cablebus, in wireways, in auxiliary gutters, in electrical metallic tubing, in flexible metal conduit, in liquidtight flexible metal conduit, in liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, and in busways.

Article 225 covers wiring outside buildings, If you use one of the methods in 225.10 and the cable or conduit is install per installation requirements of chapter 3 it would be ok. the cable would have to be protected to a height of 8 feet from grade. Article 310.12 are places that uf can't be used. (9) Where exposed to direct rays of the sun, unless identified as sunlight resistant (10) Where subject to physical damage
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

The leaders are not listed for this purpose. The NM cable installed in this way is (IMO) not permitted (it is a wet location). UF cable installed inside of the leader with the lineset seems to also be not permitted.
Here are some references:
110.3(B)
225.10 (leaders do not fall under listed raceways)
250.90
300.8
300.10 (if one should insist this is a raceway...really!)
340.10(3)

This type of installation is usually performed by the HVAC installer. The installer will tape the cable with the lineset and pull both through, as well as the control wiring. Do you think they are concerned with the cable if it is nicked in the process?

IMO
The wiring method that should be used should be some type of raceway installed accordingly.

The reason I am bringing this up is, the air conditioning season is almost upon us and we have a contractor meeting next week. The contractors asked me to come up with code reasons why it should be or should not be installed in the manner described. They also asked me to contact the 14 inspectors in our area to try to get them all on the same page. All but two are in agreement that it is not permitted.

Does anyone have any other thoughts on this so I can use it for my presentation this week?

Thank You

Pierre

Bennie
It is good to see you posting again. :D I hope all is well with you. How was your trip? Did you use your new camera to get any good photos?
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Why are the HVAC people installing the circuit for the A/C unit?
In a cold climate when ice builds up in these down spouts I have seen many come down. No way would this be ever allowed around here. Plus the expanding and contraction of the ice would have to damage the wire. even in a warm climate I would say it would be subject to damage as where the wire enter and exits the down spout there would be sharp edges I would think.
When we run gutter heaters we use a pull apart connection so if the ice build up ever cause's the gutters to fall the connection just disconnects instead of pulling down the outlet box's. I have seen where an electrician had used twist-lock type receptacle's thinking that it would keep the home owner from using the receptacle for holiday lighting. boy was he wrong the gutters fell and dragged the receptacle right out of the soffit pulling the circuit wire right through the wall. Just think 1,000 lb.'s of ice pulling on that wire.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

IMO you already answered the question. :)

Originally posted by pierre:
IMO
The wiring method that should be used should be some type of raceway installed accordingly.
Click to expand...
That is how you would do it, that is how Wayne, and Myself would do it if we could not find a way up inside the house.

I am not as sure as you it is a code violation.


110.3(B)
UF is allowed to be fished in voids, like those in cement blocks.

225.10 (leaders do not fall under listed raceways)

225.10 Allows multi conductor cables on the exterior of a building, I do not see that it requires a listed raceway.

250.90
250.86 Exception No. 2: Short sections of metal enclosures or raceways used to provide support or protection of cable assemblies from physical damage shall not be required to be grounded.

This is a little vague as to what a short section is.

I would like any metal enclosure containing electrical cables bonded but it is not required.

300.8
We know that a leader pipe is not a raceway, this would not apply. If we say it applies we can not fish NM in a stud cavity that has plumbing pipes in it.

300.10 (if one should insist this is a raceway...really!)
It is not a raceway, cables are not required to be installed in raceways.

340.10(3)
Are you saying that this is not a recognized wiring method?

334.15(B) Protection from Physical Damage.
The cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, pipe, guard strips, listed surface metal or nonmetallic raceway, or other means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, listed surface metal or nonmetallic raceway, or other metal pipe extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.
Click to expand...
Pierre I do not like the installation you describe, but wouldn't leader pipe be other means?

Do not be offended or think I like sloppy work, I just feel it is good to present both sides of an issue.

Bob

[ February 29, 2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

In a cold climate when ice builds up in these down spouts

Hurk, I think you are confusing an actual down spout with a piece of down spout only used to enclose the refrigerant lines on the side of the building. No water involved other than what incidentally runs into it at the top.

Pierre, I believe this could be considered a chase.

Keep in mind also that lately many HVAC guys use a type of "U" guard rather than an actual piece of leader although from a distance they look alike. Similar to what is used on poles to enclose and protect risers, this has an open back and goes over the refrigerant lines or cables which can be fastened to the siding in the usual manner before the "U" guard is installed over them. It is fastened with screws through flanges on each side and I believe it even has a top cap. This is made for the purpose unlike downspouts.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Bob
I knew you would come up with the type of responses you did. I want to be properly prepared to deal with this and your responses are great, Thanks!
Hal
That is very good info and I am going to see if I can locate more info on that item before the meeting. Thanks!

Pierre
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

What if the installation were such that a leader were not used and UF cable was simply ty-wrapped to the condensor lines and then properly installed into a disconnect. Would this violate any code ? Aside from the fact that it would look horrible on the outside of someone's house I don't see where it would be a violation. The leader is merely used as a decorative cover for the condensor lines. Just my opinion.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Originally posted by pierre:
This type of installation is usually performed by the HVAC installer.
Click to expand...
Where I live this would not be allowed, HVAC people do the HVAC, we do the wires.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Bob,
Where I live this would not be allowed, HVAC people do the HVAC, we do the wires.
Click to expand...
the same is true in Asheville, unless the A/C contractor at a minimum has a limited EC license with city licensed journeymen doing the wiring.


Roger
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

pierre,
I have also seen many times where a leader pipe ( although not part of the gutter system ) was used as a "raceway" for NM, on the gable side of houses, to run from central air unit to attic (blower unit). The a/c guys do this - I always thought it must be against code, but that the leader pipe looked better than conduit running up the gable. My brothers house had 14-2 on a 20 amp cb for the blower. I don't think the a/c guys really care about code. I've seen blower feed wires running up through closets to attic. NO OFFENSE TO YOU A/C GUYS THAT DO THINGS PROPERLY.
 
Re: Leaders used as raceways

Bob now that I know that the pipe is not part of the gutter (thanks Hbiss) Here too we do the electric and they do the A/C. I have had a few red tags from HVAC men running lamp cord on a furnace for a air cleaner before, so most will ask for what they need done. Now this is after a few back charges for repairing there work and the reinspection.
 
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