Learn from my mistake

[ishium 80439]

I'll try to make a long story short.

I had a contractor that I wired a few kitchens for. He had two parcels of land that he was going to put up two semi custom homes of ~3500sf. I bid the plans and he told me that even though I was a bit higher than the next bid he wanted me to do the work. I pulled the permit, put up the temp service and waited. Based on this job and a few others I figured it was time to put on another guy so I hired a first year to help out. His construction schedule was delayed (I drove by the site periodically to keep track of progress) so we had minimal contact for a few months. As I saw the job was nearing ready for wiring I re-established contact with him and we made made an appointment for what I thought was a walk through. I was late for the appointment due to unforseen circumstances (called him an hour+ before hand to let him know but he did not answer his cell or office number) and 5 minutes after I arrived another electrician showed up. It turns out that this was not a walk through (ie final locations due to framing etc)but a meeting to get an updated set of plans, look at the framing and rebid the project. I told him I would rebid it the same way but was willing to look for areas to cut costs.

I just got a phone call that he is going with the other EC. Now I've got a hole in my schedule and may need to cut the 1st year loose. I was expecting to start the job this week or next at the latest (the plumbing and HVAC roughs are complete) and have only a few little service call type jobs to keep me , 1 journeyman and 1 apprentice busy. I think the moral of the story is get a contract on everything regardless of past relationships. Or maybe there is another moral. At this point I'm not really sure what to think.

 

[lpelectric]

What an outfit! Geez, all the more reason to adopt the business operating practice of keeping the lines of communication open. The old adage "don't count your chickens before they're hatched" comes to mind. When I was doing electrical contracting years ago, my banker told me once "Nice guys finish last", and I never have forgotten that. There is so much to learn about business apart from what one learns about electricity. Good luck to you. :smile: I wish you and your new hire the best.

 

[Tiger Electrical]

"General Contractors are some of the most personable people you'll ever meet...and they're liars".

My first lawyer in a conversation when I started in business.

Dave

 

[Rewire]

I'll try to make a long story short.

I had a contractor that I wired a few kitchens for. He had two parcels of land that he was going to put up two semi custom homes of ~3500sf. I bid the plans and he told me that even though I was a bit higher than the next bid he wanted me to do the work. I pulled the permit, put up the temp service and waited. Based on this job and a few others I figured it was time to put on another guy so I hired a first year to help out. His construction schedule was delayed (I drove by the site periodically to keep track of progress) so we had minimal contact for a few months. As I saw the job was nearing ready for wiring I re-established contact with him and we made made an appointment for what I thought was a walk through. I was late for the appointment due to unforseen circumstances (called him an hour+ before hand to let him know but he did not answer his cell or office number) and 5 minutes after I arrived another electrician showed up. It turns out that this was not a walk through (ie final locations due to framing etc)but a meeting to get an updated set of plans, look at the framing and rebid the project. I told him I would rebid it the same way but was willing to look for areas to cut costs.

I just got a phone call that he is going with the other EC. Now I've got a hole in my schedule and may need to cut the 1st year loose. I was expecting to start the job this week or next at the latest (the plumbing and HVAC roughs are complete) and have only a few little service call type jobs to keep me , 1 journeyman and 1 apprentice busy. I think the moral of the story is get a contract on everything regardless of past relationships. Or maybe there is another moral. At this point I'm not really sure what to think.

If you have no desire to work for this guy again I would suggest you file suit against him in small claims court,a verbal contract is a contract it is just hard to prove but the fact that you set a temp at the site would help with your claim or at least intitle you to be compensated for its use.Also I would go to the other EC and show him your bid just so he will know how much money he left on the table.

 

[celtic]

I think the moral of the story is get a contract on everything regardless of past relationships. Or maybe there is another moral. At this point I'm not really sure what to think.

Along with Moral #1 of getting a signed contract...
Moral#2 dictates a down payment at the signing.

 

[satcom]

Contract! Contract! Contract! with detailed scope, terms, and schedule.

 

[BryanMD]

If you have no desire to work for this guy again I would suggest you file suit against him in small claims court,a verbal contract is a contract

Almost everywhere.

it is just hard to prove but the fact that you set a temp at the site would help with your claim or at least intitle you to be compensated for its use.

Actually I think this is great proof of an understanding (that verbal contract).

Why would any rational person spend time and money on such work(and the permit!) if they didn't think they had the whole job?

 

[cdslotz]

He didn't say you HAD the job. It sounds to me like he said he wants you to do the job (or hopes you are the successful bidder).

A signed proposal, letter of intent, a napkin are a contract. Like you said, learn from your mistake.

 

[LarryFine]

Send a healthy bill for the temps. If you really want to give it to him, sue for loss of profit.

 

[cschmid]

I guess I would go talk to the GC and have coffee..better to repair a bridge than burn one..GC has lots of contacts and more houses to build..loss of one does not mean loss of all..In business bridges are better than barriers..remember it is business not a personal issue..most GC go with cheapest to maximize their profit just like you want to maximize your profit..dont lower you standards just make sure you get opportunity to bid next job..

 

[tkb]

Check on the progress of the project and compare the way you bid it and the way the other EC is doing his job.

You may see that the methods he uses may make it cost less and thats why you were underbid.

Then if you talk to the GC about future work, you can bid it closer or explain why it should be more for the extra value in quality.

 

[JohnE]

Bid it. But if he is awarding the contract simply on price, he may not be a customer you want a long term relationship with anyway. You probably jumped the gun with the new hire. It might be difficult, but let him go. I've made the mistake of too many employees when it is not justified. Good luck.

 

[wireman71]

I'd call the POCO, see if you can pull your permit for the temp. Yank your temp and tell em to f-off.

 

[ishium 80439]

Thanks for the replies.

"Nice guys finish last", and I never have forgotten that. There is so much to learn about business apart from what one learns about electricity. Good luck to you. :smile: I wish you and your new hire the best.

I came to the conclusion about a year or two ago that running an EC business has very little to do with electrical work.

"General Contractors are some of the most personable people you'll ever meet...and they're liars".

Amen

I would suggest you file suit against him in small claims court

What are my damages?

Along with Moral #1 of getting a signed contract...
Moral#2 dictates a down payment at the signing.

This would account for my entry to the "Should you get a down payment?" debate. Answer- YES

better to repair a bridge than burn one..GC has lots of contacts and more houses to build..loss of one does not mean loss of all

His attitude was such that he closed the door. I'm not exactly sure why. I tried to discuss some specifics and he basically rushed me off of the phone.

Check on the progress of the project and compare the way you bid it and the way the other EC is doing his job

I'm always open to learning new methods, but short of trespassing after hours I'm not sure how I would accomplish this.

You probably jumped the gun with the new hire

It was a decision that I struggled with but I figured I had to make the move at some point. At the time of hire I had a 4000sf custom with 1500sf shop, a duplex at ~2500 sf per side and this project plus a other fillers and smaller projects. The way they were stacked the roughs would have rolled into one another and than the theory was that the trims would start soon after that. I figured that we would have a bit of down time here and there but it would basically carry us into late winter/ early spring when things traditionally pick up. I did warn the new guy when I hired him that if things got slow he would be first on the chopping block.

Yank your temp

He provided the equipment. He had a Midwest temp setup. Also I already billed him for the labor and the material I did supply so I don't see much recourse down that avenue.

 

[LarryFine]

I may have sounded a little bitter, but I recently had a home-theater company that I've done work before, call me to do some wiring in a third-floor "bonus room", with knee-walls along each side, truss construction, almost no access on one side due to ductwork, tight on the other.

Around 11:00, I drove to their customer's house (~1/2 hr), looked around for about 20 minutes, made notes and a parts list, mentally played with the figures, then gave the job leader a price of $1200, including materials, but not fixtures or dimmers.

That sounds a bit low, but they've been happy with my work, we clean up after ourselves, and they call us in periodically. The work (all new, i.e., old-work boxes, fishing wire, etc. in existing construction) was:

Install six sconces, separately switched; four around room (2 on each side, we'd have to crawl the spaces, about 30'), and two more along stairwell in an interior wall(!); and run the 2 switch legs to an existing switch box (also on an interior wall!).

(Wiremold around the inside of a nearby closet behind the switches, then into the wall and up, was the only way to get the switch legs to the existing 4-gang box at the top of the stairs.)

Install two new receptacles; one for the electronics stack just outside the room in back, and the second on the ceiling, in the tiny (1' tall!) triangular space above the room, about a 20' fish through insulation) and supplied by an inlet at the equipment stack.

So, he says something to the effect of "That's about twice what I figured it would be, and based my price on that." I explained what the obstacles were, why it wasn't an easy job, he should have called me in sooner, etc., and he said "Okay."

I make sure they'll be there the next day, I told them I'd be back in the morning, and he said, "You mean you're not going to do it now?"

So, I take my shopping list to the store, pick up the boxes, wire, etc., I don't already have, deep Wiremold and fittings, the inlet (not stocked everywhere), etc., etc., make sure I'll have two helpers available, and keep the day open.

So, the next day, with helpers and materials in the van, we're about halfway there, and the guy calls me and says, "I got someone else (he may have said "my other guy") who said he can do the job for my price, so never mind."

Needless to say, I wasn't a happy camper, and I let him know it. I might consider doing more work for him if he ever calls me again, but he'll never get a free price from me again.


Added: Gee, maybe I should follow my own suggestion and sue him for loss of profit.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Larry,

Have you considered sending him a bill for a couple/three hundred dollars to let him know it cost you money to be set up for the job when he canceled?

 

[LarryFine]

Larry,

Have you considered sending him a bill for a couple/three hundred dollars to let him know it cost you money to be set up for the job when he canceled?

Not only that, it's one of the things I 'mentioned' while chewing him out. He responded that he wondn't pay me anything since I didn't do any work, but he'd still be willing to use me in the future, when he is more prepared.

He couldn't believe that I then hung up, as he told me when he called me back. I countered with a what-if-this-happened-to-you, and he said he had no answer for me. I said, "Well, that's what you did to me today."

Added: Oh, yeah, he also said I hadn't really lost anything, since the materials wouldn't go bad, and could be used elsewhere. He wouldn't pay for 'an estimate', and had no advice about what to do with two guys and no work lined up.

 

[480sparky]

Some GCs and builders have no sense of loyalty. Bottom-price is what they are after... nothing more. If that's what this guy is looking for, don't work for him.

Now, on the opposite side of this coin is another breed of builder: the NeverCalls.

I once bid a house for a builder who was doing a complete development of about 300 homes. I met him at the site, he gave me a set of prints, and we went over some details. I told him I would call him the next day.

I did, and got his voicemail. I left my message.

After two days, no call, so I called back.... voicemail again.

The following week, I called again.... voicemail.

So I followed up with an email. No response. I sent a registered letter via snail-mail. No reply.

Over the next two months, I called him once, maybe twice a week and left a message. He never returned my calls. It was obvious he was using CallerID to screen my calls. I wondered if he was calling the cops on me for 'harassing' him.

So after three months, I figured he'd found someone else. I found work elsewhere and moved on. I drove by the development and saw a couple foundations were going in.

Suddenly, 6 months after our meeting, he finally calls and says, "Where in the H-E-double-toothpicks are you? We're ready in the first house for you!!"

I politely explained that since he didn't even have the courtesy to call me back, I found other builders who were willing to communicate with me. If you want me to start, I'll send someone out late next week, that's the best I can do right now.

He ended up finding someone else anyway. No big loss, either... he's only done 3 houses in the past 2 years. The development looks like a ghost town.

Now, I don't expect to get a job just because I bid on it. I know I'm not the lowest bid every time, since I don't work for Wal-Mart Electric. But please, Mr. Builder, have the common courtesy to call me back. Tell me where to go, tell me to suck an egg, drop dead, whatever..... I don't care.

But at least call me.


OK, I'm done ranting.

Edit to add: I found this photo of the development I took last summer:

 

[ishium 80439]

Now, I don't expect to get a job just because I bid on it. I know I'm not the lowest bid every time, since I don't work for Wal-Mart Electric. But please, Mr. Builder, have the common courtesy to call me back. Tell me where to go, tell me to suck an egg, drop dead, whatever..... I don't care.

But at least call me.

That is exactly what has me in such a spin. If he had told me 4 months ago that he just wanted me to do the temp to get the other trades moving but still hadn't made up his mind regarding the rest of the work, it would have put me in a much different mind set in terms of making a new hire and looking for/ not turning away other work. And there would have been no hard feelings. I understand that it's a business and if he didn't like my bid than let's look forward to the next one, but now I couldn't do work for him again because what's the next football he's going to yank away at the last moment?

 

[Rewire]

What are my damages?
billed him for the labor and the material I did supply so I don't see much recourse down that avenue.

Did you pass on other work? I am not saying you can win but if I passed on a job because of a verbal contract and I had already started this project i.e. set a temp and permitted, I would want to be compensated.