LED ballast failure. Something to reflect upon into specs requirement language

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ActionDave

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....
Now, I am sympathetic to some of the things you say. For instance, I dislike the throw-away mentality of today's products. It would be nice if everything was well made like it used to be, and lasted for decades. I completely understand the love for longevity with old fluorescent and MV lamps and ballasts. But that stuff is ancient garbage that is wasteful and inefficient despite how long it might last.
I remember changing out a ballast in a store a couple of years ago that had been in constant operation since the 1970's. We are not likely to see products like that any more. I was very reluctant to embrace LEDs, but I'm coming around.
Furthermore, as I mentioned above, I think great strides will be made in LED longevity that will put the final nail in the coffin of almost obsolete systems.
I agree. What we have right now is a LED guts stuffed into the skeleton of an existing fluorescent fixture. The next generation LEDs are going to be better.
 

gar

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Ann Arbor, Michigan
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EE
160917-1546 EDT

On longevity. Somewhere I believe I have a two 20 W bulb fluorescent light that was purchased about December 1940, possibly 1939, that provided vastly better illumination for considerably less power input than a 100 W incandescent. If I found this it would likely work. This was purchased from Montgomery Ward as a Christmas present for my mother.

In 1958 I started using 8 ft Slimline fixtures. Some of these original ballasts are still working. What has degraded the most has been the quality of fluorescent bulbs. Virtually all magnetic ballasts could last over a hundred years if designed to run with less temperature rise. Magnetic devices can have extremely long lives when designed for low temperature rise.

The basic LED chip used in LED lights runs very hot to obtain greatest efficiency. But, the LED component can still be expected to have good life based on knowledge of over 60 years with semiconductors and the results of accelerated life testing LEDs. The least long life component in an LED light assembly is the electrolytic capacitor.

Biggest problem is poor quality in design and manufacture of products from China. This is driven by demand for low prices rather than the ability of Chinese people. Very good products can come from China.

For linear LED lights I would prefer to see units with ballasts (power or current supply would be a better description) external to the LED bulb as is the design of a linear fluorescent fixture.

.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Fluorescent and HID lamp technologies are being sent to scrap yards and landfills by the truckload every day and that's one of the best things happening in our industry. :cool:


ohoh... peter poked the bear.....

two years ago, i put DMF elements in my house, 60 or so of them.

the first DMF's showing up, my wholesale house did a couple
hotels in them.... zero failures. not one, in 5,000 lights or so.

seems they have started cheapening them a little bit.
of my 5 dozen i've had three of them start flashing, and
need replacement.... however DMF came out with their newer
and better model, and my wholesale house has an order in for
the older, more inferior model, so the color temp will match.
waiting, patiently. the irony? the third one to fail, did it yesterday,
right over my desk. it's blinking, now. i'm going to go switch it with
another one in the far reaches of the house, where i seldom go.

to all the LED haters.... shut up and drink your kool aid. they aren't
going away.....
 

iwire

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160917-1546 EDT

Virtually all magnetic ballasts could last over a hundred years if designed to run with less temperature rise. Magnetic devices can have extremely long lives when designed for low temperature rise.

No doubt but magnetic ballasts are pretty much unavailable for florescent lamps. They went electronic some years ago now so they suffer from the same problems LED power supplies or drivers have.

I and the crews under me have installed literally thousands of LED fixtures of various types at this point and just like any modern product the quality is all over the map. Many of the outdoor LED fixtures I install seem of better construction than the HID fixtures they replace. On the other hand the LED replacements for typical 2'x2' or 2'x4' ceiling fixtures are only impressive in how little material goes into making them.

Virtually all the fixtures I install have power supplies / drivers external to the light modules.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Wasnt it less than 10 years ago a 60W LED bulb was like $50-$100? Now they are $2 and change at WM. Even CREE are just $5 now.

Sure there are problems with packing in enough LED to replace a 400W HPS... more like heat dissipation, but I think that's more retrofitting older fixtures with LED lamps. A fixture designed for them works much better.

I wont miss changing those boat anchor 8' fluorescent ballasts nor the safe-grade (read: heavy) old steel fixtures.

funny, I dont remember anyone complaining about LED exit signs and their 100,000hr+ life span over the old 15W incandescent dual bulb signs with 2000hr rated life and $3/bulb pricetag. Maintenance nightmare.
 

gar

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Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
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EE
160917-2414 EDT

iwire:

My only point with respect to magnetic ballasts was that the very nature of the device provides the possibility of very long reliable life. I am not suggesting their use today.

I think that your ability to get LED assemblies with the ballast separate from the LED bulbs should allow for longer life. This separates some of the power dissipation from the bulb and that can improve life. Further with the driver separate it can be made larger, and thus reduce its temperature rise.

Life of electronic equipment with semiconductor products can be good. I have two GE phase shift dimmers from 1965 that are on at least 8 hours per day at a low level setting. No failure, yet some other electronic equipment on the same main panel has failed, probably from nearby lightning strikes.

.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
No doubt but magnetic ballasts are pretty much unavailable for florescent lamps. They went electronic some years ago now so they suffer from the same problems LED power supplies or drivers have.

No doubt about that. However, because of the way LEDs are presented, it is a common and perhaps intentional misconception that LEDs enjoy LED clock radio like reliability. "it has 10 year warranty" means practically nothing without favorable warranty terms. What good is crappy fuel pump with a "10 year warranty" when it costs next to nothing compared to having the car towed, paying labor to have it replaced and getting a rental while it is getting repaired?

LED ballasts as well as LED modules are generally proprietary and they're meant to be owned under warranty. You're probably not going to find exact fit LED ballast at the supply house for $20. The propriety nature of LED ballasts tend to complicate prompt repairs.


funny, I dont remember anyone complaining about LED exit signs and their 100,000hr+ life span over the old 15W incandescent dual bulb signs with 2000hr rated life and $3/bulb pricetag. Maintenance nightmare.
That's an application LEDs have long enjoyed.

160917-2414 EDT
I think that your ability to get LED assemblies with the ballast separate from the LED bulbs should allow for longer life. This separates some of the power dissipation from the bulb and that can improve life. Further with the driver separate it can be made larger, and thus reduce its temperature rise.
.

Some consumer LED products have actually dropped in efficacy and/or rated life as a result of driving LEDs harder. Induction lamps have much higher depreciation than T5 lamps and that is because the phosphor blend is pushed harder. Also off gases from manufacturing processes can cause opacity in LED silicone domes whose effects can not be accurately accounted for in accelerated testing.

Highest durability T8 lamps use phosphor blends that are essentially pure rare earth and driven at low intensity. Fluorescent lamps of the solid state type have accomplished increased durability similarly through using off-chip phosphor to reduce uW/sq.in loading on phosphor blend, but solid state fluorescent lamp phosphor blend is expensive.

LED source as well as low pressure mercury UV source suffers efficiency reduction with increasing power density. Blue excited, yellow emitting phosphors used for SSFL, as well as UV excited trichromatic rare earth phosphors used in low pressure mercury discharge excited fluorescent lamps suffer accelerated degradation with higher power density.

The limited edition, 10W, 90CRI 94 lm/W PR stunt $50(in 2011 dollars) LED bulb released five years ago called the L-Prize bulb used 18 Philips Lumileds LEDs. Note that each of the LED element is designed for 3-watt input and they're high power ceramic package Philips Lumileds Luxeon LEDs, but they're only driven at about 9.5W across all 18 LEDs. These LEDs project onto a remotely mounted phosphor impregnated phosphor panels operating at low power density. This is the only LED product that has been extensively tested for durability. Although it was available to the public for a short period(availability to the public was a requirement for L-Prize) , I think its main purpose was PR stunt.

Five years later, mainstream consumer LED lamps still can not meet efficacy, CRI, lumen maintenance and color stability at the same time.

LED SSFLs can probably be made to match the depreciation characteristics of super T8 but not for the same cost.

Materials on pages 4 and 16 are of interest.
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/04/f30/mccullough_tleds_lightfair2016.pdf
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The basic LED chip used in LED lights runs very hot to obtain greatest efficiency. But, the LED component can still be expected to have good life based on knowledge of over 60 years with semiconductors and the results of accelerated life testing LEDs. The least long life component in an LED light assembly is the electrolytic capacitor.

I think you will find that most LED lights run the chips well above the maximum efficiency point, in an effort to reach a good lumen/$ point.

Take a look at the Cree Xlamp datasheet.

Luminous flux at 25C is 10% higher than at 85C.

Luminous flux at 375ma is about 60% of nominal, at 3000ma it is about 325% of nominal (8x current and 5x output).

Voltage at 3000ma is about 10% higher than 375ma.

But the chips are expensive. Run the chip at higher power and while it is less efficient you get more lumens for each $ worth of chips.

-Jon
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I think you will find that most LED lights run the chips well above the maximum efficiency point, in an effort to reach a good lumen/$ point.

It's a rough race out there. Confusing marketing wording is used to cover up flaws frequently.
Deficiencies in standards can produce paradoxical effects.

Premium T8 lamps and LPS have a shallow cookie sheet curve. The initial dip in output is small enough to be ignored in design consideration. Using fresh out of package lumens per watt performance that is favored by LED practitioners will gain a few percent of output on paper.

Fluorescent lamps have a design lumen which is based on about half way down the relamp cycle (40% of rated life... you'd lose half of lamps if you let them run to rated life, so in practice, they're replaced at 3/4 of down the rated life in well planned group relamping). Due to LED's propensity to degrade significantly through their lifetime, if maintained output was used as the basis of design, it has more than a few percent to lose.

Premium T8 lamps maintain about 95% of initial output during their re-lamp cycle, but this could go down to 91-92% for the super extended life lamps that use two sets of cathodes (making them essentially like installing two lamps in parallel). T8 degradation slope is shallow enough to not warrant compensatory circuits.

LEDs tend to behave similarly to classic mercury vapor HID lamps. Very very long life before the lamp element goes poof, but steadily losing output.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/04/f30/mccullough_tleds_lightfair2016.pdf

The data presented on page 4 shows adopting design practice similar to the one used for HIDs, which starts off significantly overlit to maintain acceptable light level until the scheduled maintenance time.

Some extremely expensive LED fixtures utilize managed over-provisioning such as Lithonia's N80. N80 luminaires are open loop and it is over-provisioned by 25% above the maintained design lighting level and utilize lookup table built into the ballast calibration to raise up amount of power fed into LEDs based on accumulated run-time to counteract LED degradation. These have delayed, planned demand growth as opposed to starting off overlit at rated kW demand. Starting off at 80% throttle slows down LED degradation and it does extend the time before it can no longer maintain design lumen. This kind of degradation compensation can not be added without integrating all the hardware necessary to make it a dimming system.

GE breifly offered expensive electronic HID ballasts that applied a similar type of degradation compensation with metal halide lamps, so it wasn't a commercial success.

Degradation counteraction principle benefits LEDs and obsolete legacy lighting products alike. Take F96T12/110W HO for example. Though legacy magnetic ballast can operate from 250 to 305v, they experienced power drift roughly proportional to input voltage. A constant voltage regulator feeding lighting circuit with voltage set near the lower end and a mechanical timer that is used to raise the target voltage with accumulation of lamp hours would do the same thing as N80. Properly calibrated, illumination level starts off right at design light level and power consumption will continue to increase in proportion to lamp decay until power is raised to permissible maximum level and once maximum power is reached, lamps are allowed to depreciate.


Take a look at the Cree Xlamp datasheet.

Luminous flux at 25C is 10% higher than at 85C.

Luminous flux at 375ma is about 60% of nominal, at 3000ma it is about 325% of nominal (8x current and 5x output).

Voltage at 3000ma is about 10% higher than 375ma.

But the chips are expensive. Run the chip at higher power and while it is less efficient you get more lumens for each $ worth of chips.

-Jon
Exactly. That's the trickery used by the $50 PR stunt light bulb. That thing used 18 expensive high power chips (which has lower degradation than medium/low power plastic SMDs that are more prevalent today)

AC 60Hz is first converted into DC by the front-end and converted into high frequency AC. A detectable amount of line frequency ripples pass through to the output, but a high quality electronically ballasted fluorescent systems have less flicker than incandescent lamps.

When you observe it on an oscilloscope, a good ballast will have a straight line with almost no artifacts while the DC rail on cheap LED ballasts will look like an egg crate which causes high flicker index.

Sometimes, cost can be shaved by compromising on performance parameters not specifically required by various standards. Lumens, watts, kelvin and CRI are common requirements and power factor rating increasingly so. Cost engineers have figured out that flicker index and flicker percentage have not been explicitly dictated and they've figured out a way to cut corners on LED ballast to raise power factor to meet regulations while maintaining lumens/watt, but many of these products have flicker index on par with or an order of magnitude worse than magnetically ballasted fluorescent lamps and induce headaches. LED elements are expensive and leaves less budget available for LED ballast.

A slightest 60/120Hz component in output causes disproportionate fluctuation in instantaneous power fed to LEDs due to natural characteristics of LEDs. This will result in flicker.

http://www.amperor.com/products/led/constant_voltage_constant_current_led_driver.html

Some of the well designed fluorescent ballasts have power factor in excess of 0.97, 90% efficiency, <10% THD, flicker index below incandescent with fantastic transient response that lamps are well sprung and rides well. So good that you could power it the same outlet as a large compressor and you're not going to be able to "see" when the compressor starts up.

el-cheapo LED ballast in my sample of glass bulbed Cree 60W bulb has significant flicker index and will make sure you'll know about every pebble you ride over despite meeting government and voluntary standards to bear Energy Star label. For example, the inductive kick back from a bathroom fan shutting off can confuse this dimmable LED ballast and make it flash. Well, this kind of adverse reaction is not specifically prohibited, so who cares?

I haven't had a chance to test the newer generation, 4 Flow LED bulb that sports steeper LED degradation slope as well as inferior initial LPW despite having a lower unsubsidized purchase cost.
 
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