LED Christmas Lights Won't Turn Off

[kwired]

Yup. Takes about 8 years to cost 15-20¢

They make a big deal out of "parasitic loads" and how much energy they consume. Reality is cost to consumer's energy bill is negligible, however demand on the grid does add up when you have millions of them on the grid.

 

[FionaZuppa]

They make a big deal out of "parasitic loads" and how much energy they consume. Reality is cost to consumer's energy bill is negligible, however demand on the grid does add up when you have millions of them on the grid.

Wiping out all the savings when CFL's came in to replace std bulbs.

When the grid needs to move 2x more power, the hi voltage lines leakage will also go way up. Seems like a wonderful idea.

 

[kwired]

Wiping out all the savings when CFL's came in to replace std bulbs.

When the grid needs to move 2x more power, the hi voltage lines leakage will also go way up. Seems like a wonderful idea.

?

When the CFL's became popular they used like 1/3 the energy to produce similar light output.

If you had some electronic control or driver that still used a few mA even when the lights were off, that likely still resulted in less energy used overall for similar lumen output.

 

[Fred B]

OP mentions 37V to ground. Seen that measurement on a back feed via spliced neutrals from more than one circuits, with devices powered on that other circuit , with other devices plugged in it can partially bypass the switch and with led holiday light power requirement so low it could easily cause them to glow or even light up. It may have nothing to do with the switch.

 

[FionaZuppa]

?

When the CFL's became popular they used like 1/3 the energy to produce similar light output.

If you had some electronic control or driver that still used a few mA even when the lights were off, that likely still resulted in less energy used overall for similar lumen output.

Because parasitic is wasting power 24/7. CFL's only "save" when they are on.

 

[ptonsparky]

MWBC are not the issue otherwise every house in this country would have the problem.

37 volts to ground means someone was suffering from HUA syndrome at installation or something has failed.

 

[kwired]

Because parasitic is wasting power 24/7. CFL's only "save" when they are on.

Wiping out all the savings when CFL's came in to replace std bulbs.

When the grid needs to move 2x more power, the hi voltage lines leakage will also go way up. Seems like a wonderful idea.

I get that, but what savings was wiped out by simply replacing incandescent lamps with CFL lamps? If there was a controller involved with parasitic load - it is still there in either situation.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I get that, but what savings was wiped out by simply replacing incandescent lamps with CFL lamps? If there was a controller involved with parasitic load - it is still there in either situation.

When CFL's proliferated to replace std filament bulbs, all the fancy switch/recept stuff was not really on the market yet.

So for some time CFL's were saving some power when they were turned on.

Then, some years later, all the fancy electronic gizmo switches and recepts (usb, other, etc) loaded with cheap electronics fills the shelves in big box stores, and end caps or door displays at your fav supply house. They get installed and not known to user the gizmo is parasitic and wasting power.

+CFL gains minus gizmo losses = net zero savings

Now with LED's in full force and replacing the toxic mercury filled CFL's, maybe there's some savings going on.

But with all the power savings from filament to CFL to LED, why the grid still taxed to point of failing? Where did all the power savings go?

 

[zbang]

Cooling for all the servers to control those magic devices?

 

[FionaZuppa]

Cooling for all the servers to control those magic devices?

Good point. IOT devices (smart TV's, Tstats, cloud connected micros, etc etc), even if not parasitic themselves, they need the 3rd party compute power to make them "function". I thought wind and solar took care of all that?

 

[kwired]

When CFL's proliferated to replace std filament bulbs, all the fancy switch/recept stuff was not really on the market yet.

So for some time CFL's were saving some power when they were turned on.

Then, some years later, all the fancy electronic gizmo switches and recepts (usb, other, etc) loaded with cheap electronics fills the shelves in big box stores, and end caps or door displays at your fav supply house. They get installed and not known to user the gizmo is parasitic and wasting power.

+CFL gains minus gizmo losses = net zero savings

Now with LED's in full force and replacing the toxic mercury filled CFL's, maybe there's some savings going on.

But with all the power savings from filament to CFL to LED, why the grid still taxed to point of failing? Where did all the power savings go?

Grid is taxed to point of failing because more power is being demanded, if anything by population growth, and from investors in the companies that operate portions of the grid not wanting to spend money on updating grid infrastructure before it gets to a point it can't handle the loads very well anymore.

With population growth you have more demand not only from these people's homes, but also for business, industry, education, municipal items like water and sewer plants and such, farming operations that feed those people and even entertainment items for all those added people.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Grid is taxed to point of failing because more power is being demanded, if anything by population growth, and from investors in the companies that operate portions of the grid not wanting to spend money on updating grid infrastructure before it gets to a point it can't handle the loads very well anymore.

With population growth you have more demand not only from these people's homes, but also for business, industry, education, municipal items like water and sewer plants and such, farming operations that feed those people and even entertainment items for all those added people.

My point is, whatever savings CFL's LED's (whatever) was there, it's gone due to [add all your reasons here]. So, if the demand causes issues outside of the "savings by technology", then the final output of the math is, need more power. Hence, still need more power with or without the savinsg from technology. Either or, lots of upgrading and new power infrastrictur is needed, and that process includes the "how much" variable. Hence, we are not saving anything, and, need to fix the system to provide way more power, about 2.5x more ! Swapping filament bulbs to LED makes no real diff, 2.5x vs say 2.6x. You see it now?

 

[zbang]

No, I don't. As one of my old prof's would say "Show your math." (It kind of sounds like "we don't need to conserve because we're going to use more anyway".)

 

[kwired]

My point is, whatever savings CFL's LED's (whatever) was there, it's gone due to [add all your reasons here]. So, if the demand causes issues outside of the "savings by technology", then the final output of the math is, need more power. Hence, still need more power with or without the savinsg from technology. Either or, lots of upgrading and new power infrastrictur is needed, and that process includes the "how much" variable. Hence, we are not saving anything, and, need to fix the system to provide way more power, about 2.5x more ! Swapping filament bulbs to LED makes no real diff, 2.5x vs say 2.6x. You see it now?

I see that the "parasitic loads" increase the energy used, I don't see it increasing it to more than what it was decreased by switching to CFL's and ultimately later on to LED's for lighting, unless you have a absurd amount of items with these parasitic loads. I'm willing to bet that most would never see a difference on a utility billing if they unplugged all such parasitic loads when not in use. But at same time a million customers and all their parasitic loads will add a few watts to the load on the utility system, but still very little in comparison to the loads that do actual work for the end user.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I think you missed it. Parasitic devices are a broad range of things, to devices that leak or use power when "off", to parasitic IOT devices that need 3rd party HVAC & compute power to provide a service.

I am 100% confident all that extra power from such devices are using and/or wasting more power than any savings between filament vs LED bulbs.

LED's only "save" when they are on.

 

[FionaZuppa]

No, I don't. As one of my old prof's would say "Show your math." (It kind of sounds like "we don't need to conserve because we're going to use more anyway".)

It's like saying, do all the effort to spend $6 just to save $5.
The full math is not just the device. Think about all the resources needed to go from metal/glass to mostly plastic LED bulbs. Glass & metal seems fairly easy to recycle, and minimal impact to environment. All-plastic has a recycle issue, and the devices many times use recyclable and non-recyclable plastics. I still have a few filament bulbs from 16yrs ago that still run a-ok today, and are used everyday. On the other end I have replaced all my LED bulbs several times already, because every single one never lasts the time period stated on the box.

 

[kwired]

I think you missed it. Parasitic devices are a broad range of things, to devices that leak or use power when "off", to parasitic IOT devices that need 3rd party HVAC & compute power to provide a service.

I am 100% confident all that extra power from such devices are using and/or wasting more power than any savings between filament vs LED bulbs.

LED's only "save" when they are on.

Something like a TV that has parasitic draw when in standby waiting for a signal "to turn it on" is drawing so little it probably doesn't even register any kWH on your utility bill if it were the only thing on for an entire billing period. Yes the load is real load but is more of a problem to the utility generation with millions of those very tiny loads on line than it is any real problem to individual users.

HVAC that is computing needs even when not otherwise active, is at least actively doing something besides waiting for other physical interaction but again if it were the only thing on line during an entire billing period, and remained in a non active output from the equipment remained in a non active output the entire billing period it likely ends up using less than a kWhr for the billing period and is almost a non factor to the user's utility bill. Chances are with a lot of HVAC equipment there is a 24VAC transformer secondary involved and that transformer is giving up more energy to it's natural losses than the logic components it powers is consuming. very similar transformers have been in HVAC equipment for a very long time and having idle losses all that time though.

 

[zbang]

LED's only "save" when they are on.

Well yes, but the same is true with a vast number of items- they only draw when in use. My car gets infinite gas mileage when it's parked in the driveway. The point is that when you use something, you get the equivalent usable work for less energy input.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Well yes, but the same is true with a vast number of items- they only draw when in use. My car gets infinite gas mileage when it's parked in the driveway. The point is that when you use something, you get the equivalent usable work for less energy input.

You mean zero gas mileage, there are no miles when it's parked, no gas either. 0/0=0. If you push your car around with your own feet, the car gets miles with no gas use.

My point of "only when on" is that the "savings" is in that context. Parasitic is not. There is no savings when the item is off (not when the caomparison is two bulb types in the ON state).

Instead of spending $6 to save $5, why not just run TV ads that say "hey, turn off those lights you are not using", because when they are off, the more that are turned off, the less power drain on the grid.

When the power sources are lacking and the message is "hey, just turn that off", the power folks get lazy and see that the demand is now much lower, hence no need to maintain 20Gw generation when 10 is good enough, and then one day everyone turns all the lights and HVAC to ON. Voila, brown and blackouts.

Diversity in power use cannot and must not ever exceed max capacity. But, CA knows very well that their power is exactly that, not enough capacity. If people need 40Gw at any given time, then the power folks need to maintain at 40Gw(min).

 

[FionaZuppa]

Something like a TV that has parasitic draw when in standby waiting for a signal "to turn it on" is drawing so little it probably doesn't even register any kWH on your utility bill if it were the only thing on for an entire billing period. Yes the load is real load but is more of a problem to the utility generation with millions of those very tiny loads on line than it is any real problem to individual users.

HVAC that is computing needs even when not otherwise active, is at least actively doing something besides waiting for other physical interaction but again if it were the only thing on line during an entire billing period, and remained in a non active output from the equipment remained in a non active output the entire billing period it likely ends up using less than a kWhr for the billing period and is almost a non factor to the user's utility bill. Chances are with a lot of HVAC equipment there is a 24VAC transformer secondary involved and that transformer is giving up more energy to it's natural losses than the logic components it powers is consuming. very similar transformers have been in HVAC equipment for a very long time and having idle losses all that time though.

It sounds good, but the fact that we have serious power issue in US says otherwise. If everything was just "ahhh, barely noticeable", then we would never have power issues. The facts are, all the littles things are seen and are issue for power sources. The issues are not "individual" issues, the power issue sums up back to the source. 40,000,000*0.2mA*120vrms parasictics = 8,000A*120v = 960kW lost at endpoints, then you need to add in transmission losses for that ~1MW, etc. Maybe end user electric meter cant see 0.2mA, but the source sure does.