LED Recess Delay

[GoldDigger]

Go back even further and the evil electric lamp was taking over gas lamps. Someday there probably will be something else for light sources, and it will be evil also.

IMHO it will only be evil if it does not require installation by an electrician. :angel:

 

[James L]

Go back even further and the evil electric lamp was taking over gas lamps. Someday there probably will be something else for light sources, and it will be evil also.

My dad was a plumber, and I remember him talking about how mad everybody in the trade was when plastic drain lines were replacing cast iron and lead

 

[kwired]

My dad was a plumber, and I remember him talking about how mad everybody in the trade was when plastic drain lines were replacing cast iron and lead

Many plumbers today (at least those that mostly do dwellings only) may not even have a pipe threader. Used to be everything was threaded or cast iron including the water supply lines.

My dad has told me stories when he was young about a home builder he once worked for - back then one contractor did everything including plumbing and wiring - from footings to finish trim. The company he worked for had a pretty large crew compared to today, but they did a lot of hard labor that today would have specialized equipment to save labor costs. Even concrete was batched on site in a small mixer and they had a large crew to mix handle and set it. He said even then there were companies with batch plants and larger trucks that probably would have saved a lot of labor, but his boss wanted to sell his labor at that time and people were apparently not as selective on choosing a contractor as they are today and were willing to pay because they wanted that company to build their home.

He has told me stories of pouring basement floors when they had crews of maybe 15 -20 guys on what today is a fairly small home. Today they do it with only 4 or 5 guys at the most, they have the concrete delivered and even sometimes hire a pumper to get it from the truck to where it is placed.

 

[James L]

...

Yup. Those older guys sure had it rough compared to today. I tried using a hand auger one time

Try 2,000 of those holes, right?


Can you imagine the poor fellas who had do install all the lath boards for plaster? I figured it up once, how many nails they would have driven. Typical 2-story house with 11-foot ceilings would have had 80,000-90,000 lath nails.

I can just hear the old guys railing against plaster veneer, and then later drywall. Cheap crap, you can kick a hole right through it. One nail every 8-10 inches? It'll just fall off the ceiling in 3 years. You're gonna paint right on top of paper?

 

[Electric-Light]

What's all that got to do with decorations that use solid state fluorescent lamps?

 

[GoldDigger]

What's all that got to do with decorations that use solid state fluorescent lamps?

Just what is a solid state fluorescent lamp?

 

[James L]

What's all that got to do with decorations.......

I think the point is......somebody's always against new products and methods. But in time it dies down.

There were guys throwing fits about all our favorite tools being made to run on ni-cad batteries. And Pex water lines. And unleaded gas. And zippers on pants. And microwave popcorn.

It all dies down in time

 

[James L]

Also, there's a case to be made that fluorescent lighting is hard on the eyes because of the voids throughout the light spectrum.

Incandescent is easy on the eyes because it's a black body.

LEDs have a smoother transition through the spectrum than flo lighting, and LEDs have a better CRI than CFLs.


Plus, LED bulbs are being made which can have the color temperature fine tuned from a smart phone....WOW. try that with a CFL

Try dimming a CFL and see that it only works down to about 40-60% brightness, then turns off. LEDs are full range dimmable


LEDs do start having problems with efficiency and stability as wattage increases, and I've talked with manufacturer reps who admit they've rolled out some stuff too early - and now they're paying for it.


I happen to prefer CFLs in some applications, like residential bathrooms. I like the way they start soft then warm up to full brightness.

But I'll take a 3000k LED ribbon under a kitchen cabinet instead of a t5 fluorescent fixture.

 

[kwired]

There were guys throwing fits about all our favorite tools being made to run on ni-cad batteries. And Pex water lines. And unleaded gas. And zippers on pants. And microwave popcorn.

It all dies down in time

First battery tools were somewhat useless, except for maybe driving screws. Improvements in those tools and especially the batteries have made some of them better then the original corded counterparts.

Not much comment from me on PEX water lines - don't know early history of those products too well.

Unleaded gas - mostly a health issue was reasoning for it - but did bring some performance problems along with it, we eventually have gotten around those issues over time.

Zippers - I find old metal zippers to be great, some of the non metallic ones around anymore totally suck.

Microwave popcorn - some are now claiming health issues from additives that are used but still has to do with the final product and not the microwave.

 

[LEO2854]

Any delay with an LED or even a program start fluorescent is still easier to deal with as a user then the warm up period of HID's.

Also the CFL's have a long warm up in the colder months.

 

[Electric-Light]

Also, there's a case to be made that fluorescent lighting is hard on the eyes because of the voids throughout the light spectrum.

There's a case to be made that white LEDs (which is usually a solid state fluorescent lamp that uses a blue LED to light up a yellow phosphor and combine with blue passing through to make white) are harmful to the eyes because of very high energy level in near violet 450nm.

Incandescent is easy on the eyes because it's a black body.

I find this claim unfounded.

LEDs have a smoother transition through the spectrum than flo lighting, and LEDs have a better CRI than CFLs.

Except for LEDs that use discrete colored emitters, LEDs are fluorescent lamps.
All CFLs are fluorescent lamps.

CRI is a very old evaluation method that tests skew in rendition of eight standardized color chips like the ones you see at paint store and computing the average by math. R1 =65, R2 =70 all the way to R8. It's not about how pleasing it is or how well it renders color in every situation in real world.

Fluorescent lamps are available in smoother transition as well, such as DSGN50 or CWX when more continuous spectrum is desirable and they're available with CRI rating as high as 98, for example, Master TL'D 90 from Philips.

Not all fluorescent lamps are CFLs. Not all CFLs are screw in edison base with built in drivers.

"LCD TVs" use an LCD panel to create the image. In marketing jargon, this refers to an LCD panel backlit by CCFL, a low pressure mercury discharge lamp.

"LED TVs" are generally the same thing except the back light light source is substituted with solid state based lighting. It is generally a fluorescent lamp that uses blue LED emitters in combination with an yellow phosphor blend. So, they're not "LED TV" in a literal sense. A jumbo TV that use a large array of colored LEDs to form pixels would be an LED TV.

All these different phrasing are word games invented by marketing people.

Plus, LED bulbs are being made which can have the color temperature fine tuned from a smart phone....WOW. try that with a CFL

That's a marketing matter. Not technical. Many fluorescent fixtures use more than one lamps and this can be done by changing the ratio using multiple lamps with different color temperature. You're talking about consumer market mainstream products.

Try dimming a CFL and see that it only works down to about 40-60% brightness, then turns off. LEDs are full range dimmable

This is not a sacred intrinsic advantage to blue LED excited solid state fluorescent lamp debate.

Have you ever heard of such thing called Lutron Hi-Lume dimming ballast? Full dimming of fluorescent lamps of all types including CFLs(such as PLC 13, 18 and 26W.. as well as PL-L 55W and such) T5 and T8 with dimming range down to 0.5% (one half of one percent) in some combinations. Osram Sylvania, Advance, GE all make dimmable fluorescent solutions down to 5% or less and they can all fully integrate with building automation systems. Household grade CFLs sold at Home Depot is not an entire representation of lighting design and dimming by cutting a triac dimmer in line is not the entire picture of lighting control.

LEDs do start having problems with efficiency and stability as wattage increases, and I've talked with manufacturer reps who admit they've rolled out some stuff too early - and now they're paying for it.

Color shift, chromaticity mismatch, excess DUV deviation, patch up appearance are issues that plague LED lighting of all wattage and LEDs are far more susceptible than discharge fluorescent lamps.

I happen to prefer CFLs in some applications, like residential bathrooms. I like the way they start soft then warm up to full brightness.

That's actually an application better served by incandescent, then by LED (solid state fluorescent lamp) if legislatively forced to do so. They're usually cycled at few minutes at a time, an application low pressure discharge type traditional CFLs are not suited for.

 

[GoldDigger]

Electric-Light, thank you for a broad based and accurate survey of this subject!
The only thing I would add is that with the introduction of the Organic LED (OLED) true LED screens are now available in a range of sizes from smartphone to TV.
I can state from personal experience with a Droid Max phone with OLED that the image is outstanding. And with no backlight it is even possible to leave a low brightness sparse pixel image active full time without problematic battery drain.

 

[Electric-Light]

Just what is a solid state fluorescent lamp?

It is the dominant technology used in "LED lighting"

Theory of operation:

The shortwave near violet blue at around 450nm is used to produce yellow light and the pass-through blue light and yellow are combined to form white light.
There are some concerns about retinal eye damage from this technology's disproportionately high watts per lumen content of near violet blue in the 420-460nm range.

Technology demonstration:

This solid state fluorescent lamp uses phosphor blend applied directly on the chip as opposed to the design shown in the first picture.

Comparing to "traditional" fluorescent. Standard lamps use a phosphor blend coated on the interior surface of glass bulb. The bulb used in ordinary lamps are opaque to the excitation ultraviolet.

 

[Electric-Light]

Someone might have mentioned active managed LED lighting. One such example of this application is CREE TrueWhite which constantly adjusts the blue LED that pumps the solid state fluorescent lamp and a red LED that compensates the lack of deeper red. Balancing out the two sources also provides for compensation for phosphor coating degradation as well as color shift from dimming.

But. . . this uses a complex controller and electronic modulation that produces increased levels of RF emissions and EMI which may interfere with communication.

Another verified problem with this method is that it creates a less than perfect diffusion and casts a shadow having a very odd aberration with red and green fringes. Something that does not happen with ordinary lighting technology.
It may also be a deal killer for type of consumers who find themselves concerned about environmental impact of mercury in fluorescent lamps as red LEDs usually contain arsenic even though there is no added mercury.

 

[kwired]

There's a case to be made that white LEDs (which is usually a solid state fluorescent lamp that uses a blue LED to light up a yellow phosphor and combine with blue passing through to make white) are harmful to the eyes because of very high energy level in near violet 450nm.


I find this claim unfounded.


Except for LEDs that use discrete colored emitters, LEDs are fluorescent lamps.
All CFLs are fluorescent lamps.

CRI is a very old evaluation method that tests skew in rendition of eight standardized color chips like the ones you see at paint store and computing the average by math. R1 =65, R2 =70 all the way to R8. It's not about how pleasing it is or how well it renders color in every situation in real world.

Fluorescent lamps are available in smoother transition as well, such as DSGN50 or CWX when more continuous spectrum is desirable and they're available with CRI rating as high as 98, for example, Master TL'D 90 from Philips.

Not all fluorescent lamps are CFLs. Not all CFLs are screw in edison base with built in drivers.

"LCD TVs" use an LCD panel to create the image. In marketing jargon, this refers to an LCD panel backlit by CCFL, a low pressure mercury discharge lamp.

"LED TVs" are generally the same thing except the back light light source is substituted with solid state based lighting. It is generally a fluorescent lamp that uses blue LED emitters in combination with an yellow phosphor blend. So, they're not "LED TV" in a literal sense. A jumbo TV that use a large array of colored LEDs to form pixels would be an LED TV.

All these different phrasing are word games invented by marketing people.

That's a marketing matter. Not technical. Many fluorescent fixtures use more than one lamps and this can be done by changing the ratio using multiple lamps with different color temperature. You're talking about consumer market mainstream products.


This is not a sacred intrinsic advantage to blue LED excited solid state fluorescent lamp debate.

Have you ever heard of such thing called Lutron Hi-Lume dimming ballast? Full dimming of fluorescent lamps of all types including CFLs(such as PLC 13, 18 and 26W.. as well as PL-L 55W and such) T5 and T8 with dimming range down to 0.5% (one half of one percent) in some combinations. Osram Sylvania, Advance, GE all make dimmable fluorescent solutions down to 5% or less and they can all fully integrate with building automation systems. Household grade CFLs sold at Home Depot is not an entire representation of lighting design and dimming by cutting a triac dimmer in line is not the entire picture of lighting control.


Color shift, chromaticity mismatch, excess DUV deviation, patch up appearance are issues that plague LED lighting of all wattage and LEDs are far more susceptible than discharge fluorescent lamps.


That's actually an application better served by incandescent, then by LED (solid state fluorescent lamp) if legislatively forced to do so. They're usually cycled at few minutes at a time, an application low pressure discharge type traditional CFLs are not suited for.

I got a little lost in there, but I think a simpler comment that helps clarify where I got lost and maybe others do as well is the use of the word fluorescent. Most that hear that word think of the common tube type lamps filled with a gas that put out light when a current passes through them - and the compact versions.

To clarify those are "electric discharge" lamps, the coating on the tube is what technically is "fluorescent".

A "solid state fluorescent" would still be similar principle - a solid state source (an LED) and a "fluorescent" coating that changes the properties of the light that is emitted.

Some coated HID lamps are maybe "fluorescent" lamps as well.


Correct me if I am wrong. Just trying to simplify this for any that are confused.

 

[Electric-Light]

I got a little lost in there, but I think a simpler comment that helps clarify where I got lost and maybe others do as well is the use of the word fluorescent. Most that hear that word think of the common tube type lamps filled with a gas that put out light when a current passes through them - and the compact versions.

What you think is exactly what the LED industry wants you to believe. They don't want anything to do with the word fluorescent and light emitting decoration makers go out of their way to avoid using that word. Their jargon is pcLED, which stands for phosphor conversion LED. A different way of saying solid state driven fluorescent lamp.

Pumped means a light source is used to induce something else to re-emit. A high lighter that glows in black light is a long wave ultraviolet pumped yellow light.

If you were to rephrase a lamp like F40T12/CW in LED industry jargon, it would be called a shortwave ultraviolet pumped phosphor conversion low pressure Hg lamp.

To clarify those are "electric discharge" lamps, the coating on the tube is what technically is "fluorescent". A "solid state fluorescent" would still be similar principle - a solid state source (an LED) and a "fluorescent" coating that changes the properties of the light that is emitted.

Exactly. Fluorescence is the big part of it since this is the dominant technology used in solid state lighting. In the most common design, the phosphor is applied right onto the chip. It's exposed to the source light at very high intensity just like in a CFL or a VHO fluorescent lamp, so it also suffers from a high degradation rate. The construction of it makes it hard for the average person to become aware of it.

Some coated HID lamps are maybe "fluorescent" lamps as well.

Yes and no. Coated mercury and metal halide get about the same output as their non-coated counterpart. The phosphor coating adds some red to lower the color temperature and raise the CRI somewhat. They're phosphor enhanced lamps more so than fluorescent lamp. HIDs run at a much higher pressure which stretches out the emission lines enough for use as a white light source. They take a long time to warm up, because it must literally get hot enough to pressurize the stuff inside.

Correct me if I am wrong. Just trying to simplify this for any that are confused.

There's a type of lamp called low pressure sodium. It puts out a very narrow band amber light that happens to land quite nicely to where our eyes are very sensitive, but you're in black and yellow world. High pressure sodium runs at a much high pressure which spreads out the emission a lot wider and it is done to add color discrimination ability. It cuts the efficiency in about half.

Low pressure sodium is around 200 lumens per watt and they were getting 150 or more lumens per watt back in 1970s.


So, you could use a solid state pumped fluorescent lamp and supplement it with red LED to increase deep red rendition.

Yo could also run an ordinary "fluorescent lamp" with a neon lamp next to it to supplement the red shortage.

The primary reason for the shift away from T12 fluorescent lamps was to get away from problems solid state fluorescent lamps suffer today. The phosphor blend used on common cool white lamps degrades quite a bit with use, but not nearly as bad as what they allow for LEDs. It's a double standard.

CREE screw-in light bulb is rated at estimated 25,000 hours of use before 30% decay and it's only rated at 74 lpw. (815 lm per 11 watt). 51.9 lm/W near end of life. http://creebulb.com/products/standard-type-a/the-new-60-watt-replacement-soft-white-led-bulb

Yeah and modern CFLs only lose 15 percent in lifetime. 12 to 16k hours.
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-5295.pdf

I only included that link for lumen maintenance graph. Even screw base CFLs with 12,000 hr 800 lm 13W specs are common. The rated life is about half that of CREE LED bulb, but they don't drop to 70% output. Using the same curve as PL-C, it will get about 52.3 lm/W at end of life.

mercury gas CFL or solid state CFL, they are both subject to ballast failures.