LED recessed lay-ins require top-access?

[malachi constant]

I am the specifying engineer on a project where we are replacing lay-in fluorescent troffers one-for-one with LED troffers. Troffers are Columbia LCAT24 style (fairly standard architectural lay-ins).

The electrical inspector is prohibiting the installation because the fixtures are close enough to the structure above that "an electrician cannot get access to the junction box of the fixture without needing to bring the entire fixture down". The existing fluorescent fixtures (that were wired through knockouts on the fixture ends) were legal per the electrical inspector, because you could get access to the wiring by opening the door. I have not been to the site yet to view the new fixture.

We have the option to retrofit the fluorescent housing. The existing fixtures have not yet been removed, and the client has enough lighting replacement projects in the works that the LEDs would have a home by next summer. So this isn't that painful. But it's weird, as one of the original selling points for LED troffers was you can slip them into tighter ceilings. It's one more thing I would have to wonder about when looking at replacement of an existing recessed system, and the less things I have to wonder about the better.

The fixture cutsheet (link above) says "removable lens for easy access to LED module and electrical components". I have a call into the lighting vendor to get their take on this. If anyone has similar experience or thoughts on the matter I'd love to hear it. Thanks!

 

[mopowr steve]

Can’t wait to here what the response is. Let us know.

 

[Kansas Mountain]

Your inspector is wrong. Removing a fixture from a drop ceiling like that does not constitute demolition. Therefore, even if you have to remove the fixture, the ceiling is still accessible. Junction boxes are not required to be readily accessible, just accessible per NEC 314.29 2020. Grab your definitions from Article 100 and tell him to site a specific code section he is referencing.

 

[texie]

If the fixture junction box is also like a standard lay-in that is accessible from below it should be fine. Similar to can lighting where you can access the wiring by removing the can. The cut sheet does not say for sure but I bet it is.

 

[RWC/NC.]

Well, from reading your posting (O.P) and trying get a handle on what your AHJ could possibly be using as substance in noncompliance. *Notice in your description, you did denote "lay-in ceiling" but "very little" working room above fixture.
So if J-boxes are involved above fixtures, and per your Inspectors (AHJ's) statement of noncompliance, maybe you should view Article 410

(N).. 410.118 Access to Other Boxes.
*shall not be used to access outlet, pull, or junction boxes or conduit bodies, unless the box or conduit body is an integral part of the listed luminaire.

 

[malachi constant]

Thanks all. Meeting with the contractor in the morning.

 

[hillbilly1]

I can see the inspectors point, with a standard fluorescent 2x4, the belly pan can be removed, with LED, all connections and driver replacement is done from above. It’s not as simple as dropping the fixture, because either the seismic screws installed into the grid, or hurricane clips being latched would require removing. That being said, I don’t think they make a new LED lay in fixture, unless maybe a hard ceiling type with bottom access.

 

[RWC/NC.]

Well, been digging around bit more.
Installation Instructions that are provided w/fixture.

Installation: Access Plate is furnished w/each luminare for fast wiring access without the necessity to open the fixture wireway.

110.3(B) Installation and Use.
Equipment that is listed, labeled or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

* If the AHJ wants to be difficult, he possibly could play this card.
Opinions ?

 

[Kansas Mountain]

Well, been digging around bit more.
Installation Instructions that are provided w/fixture.

Installation: Access Plate is furnished w/each luminare for fast wiring access without the necessity to open the fixture wireway.

110.3(B) Installation and Use.
Equipment that is listed, labeled or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

* If the AHJ wants to be difficult, he possibly could play this card.
Opinions ?

I would say those instructions say you can have quick access without opening the wireway. I don't think that's the same as saying you cannot open the wireway. And maybe I'm overlooking something, so sorry if this is a stupid question, but I don't understand what that has to do with accessing the jbox?

 

[Kansas Mountain]

It’s not as simple as dropping the fixture, because either the seismic screws installed into the grid, or hurricane clips being latched would require removing.

I mean, you have to open locks and sometimes remove screws to access distribution equipment. IMO, by that logic, you're arguing that breakers are not accessible. Not saying it wouldn't be annoying to access the jbox above, I just don't think the inspector has a code to back him up to actually force the change.

 

[kwired]

I would say those instructions say you can have quick access without opening the wireway. I don't think that's the same as saying you cannot open the wireway. And maybe I'm overlooking something, so sorry if this is a stupid question, but I don't understand what that has to do with accessing the jbox?

Plus on top of what you said, how does one install it if there is no access to do so? Bet there is enough flexible whip to remove it then access it, reverse order of what was done to install it, and as you mentioned and I agree this not required to be readily accessible, just accessible, which IMO it is.

 

[hbiss]

As with most troffers, there is a wiring compartment cover that allows the installer to quickly wire the fixture to the pigtails then put the cover in place. I can't see how you would think that you couldn't gain access to that wiring from below when the fixture is installed. The belly pan comes off- how do you think they put the driver in there?

The electrical inspector is prohibiting the installation because the fixtures are close enough to the structure above that "an electrician cannot get access to the junction box of the fixture without needing to bring the entire fixture down".

The inspector is an idiot.

-Hal

 

[Fred B]

Haven't done a lot of these but I've most always wire the whip onto the trough before installation then lay it into the grid and the wire to the jbox. I could see the point that the jbox in the same grid placement as the trougher can be very difficult at best or impossible at worst if clearances between the box and trougher prevents lifting the trough into the bay. Don't know if he has a code leg to stand on to enforce noncompliant though. But from an installer POV I'd be cursing the designer that specified the jbox in same grid bay as the trougher, and having to try to support the trougher while at same time trying to wire it up.

 

[kwired]

I could see the point that the jbox in the same grid placement as the trougher can be very difficult at best or impossible at worst if clearances between the box and trougher prevents lifting the trough into the bay.

If there is no room to access it later there likely was no room to put it together in the first place. If there is enough clearance to lay it in with whip already attached then there is room to take it out with whip already attached. Bottom line it is accessible, and is not required to be "readily accessible".

 

[malachi constant]

OK, I figured out what was going on. The fixtures are legal to install. The inspector and contractor didn't have the fixtures on site so speculated about how they needed accessed.

However...the top of the existing troffers are on average 1/2" below the precast structure, the grid would basically need removed to slide the fixtures out. Not a code issue, but a legitimate unforeseen condition.

There is also a (I think legitimate) code violation in that a few ceiling-mounted j-boxes are installed behind the existing ACT ceiling grid. Like, there is about six inches between bottom of grid and bottom of structure, and the j-box is centered above the grid. The grid would need taken down to safely work on the box. The inspector had told the EC if he replaces the fixtures he has to relocate those boxes. If he only replaces the guts of the fixture the boxes can remain.

Since we have another home for the fixtures next summer we're going to save the project the trouble of grid work and j-box relocation, and go with the retrofit kit.

Thanks all!

 

[kwired]

OK, I figured out what was going on. The fixtures are legal to install. The inspector and contractor didn't have the fixtures on site so speculated about how they needed accessed.

However...the top of the existing troffers are on average 1/2" below the precast structure, the grid would basically need removed to slide the fixtures out. Not a code issue, but a legitimate unforeseen condition.

There is also a (I think legitimate) code violation in that a few ceiling-mounted j-boxes are installed behind the existing ACT ceiling grid. Like, there is about six inches between bottom of grid and bottom of structure, and the j-box is centered above the grid. The grid would need taken down to safely work on the box. The inspector had told the EC if he replaces the fixtures he has to relocate those boxes. If he only replaces the guts of the fixture the boxes can remain.

Since we have another home for the fixtures next summer we're going to save the project the trouble of grid work and j-box relocation, and go with the retrofit kit.

Thanks all!

Those existing troffers are probably at least 3.5 inches deep or even more in some cases.

Your new LED lay ins probably not much deeper than the t bars if even that deep. No reason you can't lift the luminaire out and move it over to access a junction box above it. This is nothing more than an inspector pushing his authority around too much.

For the umpteenth time, that box is required to be accessible but not required to be readily accessible. removing ceiling tiles or lay in luminaires to gain access is not demolition by a long shot.

 

[malachi constant]

Those existing troffers are probably at least 3.5 inches deep or even more in some cases.

Your new LED lay ins probably not much deeper than the t bars if even that deep. No reason you can't lift the luminaire out and move it over to access a junction box above it. This is nothing more than an inspector pushing his authority around too much.

For the umpteenth time, that box is required to be accessible but not required to be readily accessible. removing ceiling tiles or lay in luminaires to gain access is not demolition by a long shot.

kwired -
Re: the box being required to be accessible - the boxes in question are not covered by fixture or ACT tile, they are covered up by ACT grid. The boxes were likely installed ten years ago before the grid was put up, then the grid happened to cover up the fixtures. We're talking 5 or 6 inches of depth between bottom of grid and bottom of ceiling. The grid is 1.5" deep, and I'm guessing so is the j-box, so top of grid to bottom of j-box is about 2". I don't know if it is an enforceable code issue or not, but it feels reasonable to say you shouldn't have to take the grid down to get at a j-box. Ceiling tile OK, shift a fixture OK, but having to disassemble a grid though probably a gray area is a step closer to being like covered up with sheetrock.

The other issue (as noted above) was the grid needed to be disassembled to demolish the existing fixtures. They could not be lifted out, they cannot even be lifted an inch to get a better angle to bring them down through the grid. Not a code issue! But at this point the path of least resistance is "just buy retrofit kits and we'll store those 20 fixtures and put them somewhere else in next year's lighting upgrade project".

 

[hbiss]

Haven't done a lot of these but I've most always wire the whip onto the trough before installation then lay it into the grid and the wire to the jbox.

Right. But...

The electrical inspector is prohibiting the installation because the fixtures are close enough to the structure above that "an electrician cannot get access to the junction box of the fixture without needing to bring the entire fixture down". The existing fluorescent fixtures (that were wired through knockouts on the fixture ends) were legal per the electrical inspector, because you could get access to the wiring by opening the door.

What are we talking about here? The wiring compartment on the fixture or a j box up in the ceiling where the whip gets powered from?

Sounds to me like you and he are talking about the wiring compartment that is accessible from the top of the fixture. These fixtures shouldn't be any different than the old ones. The wiring is accessible after installation by removing the diffuser or belly pan.

As for the existing J boxes-

For the umpteenth time, that box is required to be accessible but not required to be readily accessible. removing ceiling tiles or lay in luminaires to gain access is not demolition by a long shot.

-Hal

 

[Fred B]

Right. But...



What are we talking about here? The wiring compartment on the fixture or a j box up in the ceiling where the whip gets powered from?

Sounds to me like you and he are talking about the wiring compartment that is accessible from the top of the fixture. These fixtures shouldn't be any different than the old ones. The wiring is accessible after installation by removing the diffuser or belly pan.

-Hal

If it is a thin line flat panel led like that I've used most often, the connection is strictly from above the trougher, no access from below as no removable diffuser lenses or cover like a florescent trougher would have. These types take up considerably less overhead space in the drop ceiling space and majority of the trougher is only 3/4" and then a 2" deep termination/driver box at one end. Even if it is or isn't this type, supporting the trougher while wiring it up to the jbox if directly above the trougher would be a real pain from a ladder or any other means without having an extra long whip that would allow placement far enough away while working on the connections before sliding the trougher into the grid.
Regardless I don't know that it is a code issue, really more of a functional installation issue.

 

[hbiss]

If it is a thin line flat panel led like that I've used most often, the connection is strictly from above the trougher, no access from below as no removable diffuser lenses or cover like a florescent trougher would have.

Look at the spec sheets the OP linked to in his first post.

-Hal