Legal wiring of dedicated CCTV Camera Poles

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Security

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The company I work at is manufacturing poles for CCTV cameras and equipment, and we want to make sure that the wiring is legal - both the wiring done here and also some preparation/guidance for the installer to remain legal.
I have spent many days searching here and elsewhere, and I may have confused myself with all of the information that has been discussed and NEC code. So I still have some questions that I can't seem to find answered adequately.
I have 4" square poles to work with, and they are dedicated to CCTV equipment (no luminaries) - all high and low voltages are part of the same system.
Here is what we are proposing on some models:
- 120V wiring with MC from the handhole to the top of the pole - receptacles at the top of the pole in a large built-in junction box, controlled by a GFCI Module at the handhole (accessible). Ground wire will be connected to the grounding lug inside the pole.
- Low voltage and 120V will both reside in this junction box (camera connections and receptacles). There is a 3" hole entering this box from the pole top, so 2" separation is possible.
- Some poles will contain wireless equipment, but some will require coax and/or Cat5/6 down the pole to the handhole.

My questions:
Is this legal?
Do we need to have a divider anywhere? (if so, what materials may be used?)
Installers will be instructed to bring in power and coax in separate conduits - so what can be done to make the connections legal at the handhole? (from conduit(s) to our wiring)
Any other issues you can think of?

Thanks in advance - I've seen some great answers here during my searches.
 
OK, lots of folks looking at this thread, but no replies yet.
Feel free to answer any part of this equation.
Will the MC make it legal in the same raceway?
Both voltages going in to the same junction box OK? (it's a big box - 8"x8"x10" tall, so there is plenty of room for separation)
Is the fact that all the wiring is for the same system make it an exception?
If the part of the installer remaining legal is stumping you, then let's just address the factory wiring portion instead.
Any replies, even partial will be appreciated. Maybe we can piece together some solutions.
 
Security said:
OK, lots of folks looking at this thread, but no replies yet.
Feel free to answer any part of this equation.
Will the MC make it legal in the same raceway?
Both voltages going in to the same junction box OK? (it's a big box - 8"x8"x10" tall, so there is plenty of room for separation)
Is the fact that all the wiring is for the same system make it an exception?
If the part of the installer remaining legal is stumping you, then let's just address the factory wiring portion instead.
Any replies, even partial will be appreciated. Maybe we can piece together some solutions.
Click to expand...



Legal is the wrong term, code compliance is not about how to build a product. The NEC is not always the determining factor for permissibility. It's not a design guide either. It's a generalized how to on installation methods.... and even that is too specific a statement.

Are you getting the product UL listed?


you cannot just decide to use the single entry exception, it needs to be a product design/listing determination.

I can only assume this is for exterior use, standard MC cable is not rated for wet locations (they do make damp/wet MC but I doubt you are using it)


If the pole is not a luminary then it's internal space is not a raceway per se. But if it was, MC and LV cables in the same 'raceway' are not permissible. If it's not a 'raceway' or 'conduit' it might fly, but it depends. The 2" spacing may come into play.


FO would simply your product, but understand most company's don't want to be bothered with fiber.
 
Sorry about the "legal" terminology. We want to conform to code primarily for the safety aspect. We want a safe product. Would also like for the installers to have a little guidance on how to keep all the connections safe as well.
Poles leave here now without any wiring. Don't know what about that could be UL listed. We are exploring doing some pre-wiring (using UL listed parts), because we are seeing all sorts of installations and many are not up to code standards - and some are not using electricians for the wiring. We want to see if we can improve this, bring some uniformity to each installation, and make the wiring on each pole safer by design.

Inside the pole is not a wet location. It is weatherproof.
By the way, some customers do use FO, but not many, and there is not a lot of pre-wiring we can do for that anyway (and those don't tend to be the "sloppy" installations).

Your answer about it not being a raceway if the pole is not for luminaries, is pretty much what we had concluded, but we simply could not find the code to back that up. We intend to maintain the 2" spacing no matter. Crosstalk and noise from the power is a key consideration for us, so we are weighing MC or even inserting an internal conduit for the power. The fact that these poles don't have the 277V or 480V that most light poles have, is a great improvement in noise problems already.

Thanks for taking the time to help.
 
Security said:
Sorry about the "legal" terminology. We want to conform to code primarily for the safety aspect. We want a safe product. Would also like for the installers to have a little guidance on how to keep all the connections safe as well.
Poles leave here now without any wiring. Don't know what about that could be UL listed. We are exploring doing some pre-wiring (using UL listed parts), because we are seeing all sorts of installations and many are not up to code standards - and some are not using electricians for the wiring. We want to see if we can improve this, bring some uniformity to each installation, and make the wiring on each pole safer by design.

Inside the pole is not a wet location. It is weatherproof.
By the way, some customers do use FO, but not many, and there is not a lot of pre-wiring we can do for that anyway (and those don't tend to be the "sloppy" installations).

.
Click to expand...

Did I miss the part about you just selling a pole before this post? (Edit- ah one I see what you meant)

You can sell anything you want, but the AHj will have to approve any material installed that isn't listed (there are exceptions that don't apply). If you put wire in it and it will be connected to an electrical source for commercial light and power at 50+ volts, almost every place will require it to be listed or approved.

If you add MC to it and ship it out without a UL listing, eventually one of your customers will get jammed up on an inspection. Might not be the sub putting it in, but the electrical contractor.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but there are ways to go about manufacturing something like that, just slamming in MC isn't , IMO the best idea.


FYI Google PVC coated MC cable. Even if it'd not 'wet' it's damp. The box connector needs to be rated for the type of location. Standard MC fittings are dry only.

Even better, two 3/4" pieces of Non metallic liquidtite, each their own raceway. (And a pull string in each one would make to you a hero.). You don't have to provide any wire. I still wouldn't buy it with out a listing, but that's me.
 
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I feared the MC might be considered ghetto instead of a good solution.
Your idea is awesome. I should have known to let the electricians do the wiring and simply pave the way for that, to make it quick and easy. THAT, is the correct decision from a manufacturer's point of view - wish I had twigged on that earlier. Installers use liquidtite all the time on poles so they are very familiar with it.

Any ideas on how to secure the Non metallic liquidtite at both ends?

Thanks again for the insights. Electricians who are field savvy, beat a desk-bound Engineer EVERY time!
 
Security said:
I feared the MC might be considered ghetto instead of a good solution.
Your idea is awesome. I should have known to let the electricians do the wiring and simply pave the way for that, to make it quick and easy. THAT, is the correct decision from a manufacturer's point of view - wish I had twigged on that earlier. Installers use liquidtite all the time on poles so they are very familiar with it.

Any ideas on how to secure the Non metallic liquidtite at both ends?

Thanks again for the insights. Electricians who are field savvy, beat a desk-bound Engineer EVERY time!
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Duct Tape.:angel:

The issue becomes whether the flex is field installed or manufacture provided. If field installed:

From the 2008 NEC

356.10 Uses Permitted.

LFNC shall be permitted to be used in exposed or concealed locations for the following purposes:

(1)Where flexibility is required for installation, operation, or maintenance.

(2) Where protection of the contained conductors is required from vapors, liquids, or solids.

(3) For outdoor locations where listed and marked as suitable for the purpose.

(4) For direct burial where listed and marked for the purpose.

(5) Type LFNC-B shall be permitted to be installed in lengths longer than 1.8 m (6 ft) where secured in accordance with 356.30.

(6) Type LFNC-B as a listed manufactured prewired assembly, metric designator 16 through 27 (trade size 1/2 through 1) conduit.

(7) For encasement in concrete where listed for direct

356.30 Securing and Supporting.

Type LFNC-B shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with one of the following:

(1) Where installed in lengths exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft), the conduit shall be securely fastened at intervals not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) on each side of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

(2) Securing or supporting of the conduit shall not be required where it is fished, installed in lengths not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) at terminals where flexibility is required, or installed in lengths not exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft) from a luminaire terminal connection for tap conductors to luminaires permitted in 410.117(C).

(3) Horizontal runs of LFNC supported by openings through framing members at intervals not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) and securely fastened within 300 mm (12 in.) of termination points shall be permitted.

(4) Securing or supporting of LFNC-B shall not be required where installed in lengths not exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft) from the last point where the raceway is securely fastened for connections within an accessible ceiling to luminaire(s) or other equipment.


So if fishing through the pole it is done on site, its kosher. If you provide it, and again I hate to sound like a broken record -it's listed - then do whatever will make UL/ETL happy. 1 hole straps within 3' of the enclosure and 3' of the end sticking out?!?!? Guess you really can't support it In the pole. how tall is the pole, if it's a lot the weight of the liquidtite itself may be an issue Pulling on the connector.
 
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By the way, concerning UL listing: We can't find where our poles apply. There is no lighting or luminaries. There is no wiring. Field installations are all different and we cannot list for what "may" be used.
We want to be listed, but have researched this and come up empty so far. Even the new standard, UL1598, was created for lighting poles. And NEC 410.30(B) is all about luminaries. This is what we have run into everywhere. Nothing seems to apply.

We are already Certified to the International Building Code and also are in conformance with requirements of AASHTO Spec (4th edition) and IBC 2001. But we seem to have run out of anything else to conform to - that applies.
 
Install the attachment points to the inside of the pole but ship the precut length(s) of LFNC separately in the package so that it can be fished into the pole in the field?


For destinations other than US and Canada you may need to use something other than LFNC or leave it out entirely.
 
Pole heights are 10', 15', and 20'. (handhole is at 18" from bottom for each of the poles)
Will the liquidtite fittings hold it? I figured that would be how to secure it at the top - with a fitting screwed into the junction box. Don't know about at the handhole.

However, it looks like the code may say that we can't install or build in any wiring or any raceways. Stymied at every turn. Sheesh!
 
Security said:
Pole heights are 10', 15', and 20'. (handhole is at 18" from bottom for each of the poles)
Will the liquidtite fittings hold it? I figured that would be how to secure it at the top - with a fitting screwed into the junction box. Don't know about at the handhole.

However, it looks like the code may say that we can't install or build in any wiring or any raceways. Stymied at every turn. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

You can but the guy installing it has to own it end to end...... Unless it's listed!!!

I believe they make liquidtite strain relief connector, but long term I'm uncertain, especially at 20'

If they make something like a 'Kellum Grip' that would be idea. Google that to see images
 
Security said:
By the way, concerning UL listing: We can't find where our poles apply. There is no lighting or luminaries. There is no wiring. Field installations are all different and we cannot list for what "may" be used.
We want to be listed, but have researched this and come up empty so far. Even the new standard, UL1598, was created for lighting poles. And NEC 410.30(B) is all about luminaries. This is what we have run into everywhere. Nothing seems to apply.

We are already Certified to the International Building Code and also are in conformance with requirements of AASHTO Spec (4th edition) and IBC 2001. But we seem to have run out of anything else to conform to - that applies.
Click to expand...

It doesn't need wires to be UL listed, there are many categories. UL would gladly take your money and fit you in a category somehow.
 
nhfire77 said:
It doesn't need wires to be UL listed, there are many categories. UL would gladly take your money and fit you in a category somehow.
Click to expand...

You can have anything listed, like you said they will take your money and if you want a new listing category they don't already have - they will probably take even more money and create a new listing category. There are also other NRTL's besides UL.
 
Security said:
By the way, concerning UL listing: We can't find where our poles apply. There is no lighting or luminaries. There is no wiring. Field installations are all different and we cannot list for what "may" be used.
We want to be listed, but have researched this and come up empty so far. Even the new standard, UL1598, was created for lighting poles. And NEC 410.30(B) is all about luminaries. This is what we have run into everywhere. Nothing seems to apply.

We are already Certified to the International Building Code and also are in conformance with requirements of AASHTO Spec (4th edition) and IBC 2001. But we seem to have run out of anything else to conform to - that applies.
Click to expand...

I now see exactly what your product is.

Most of your customers must be DOT's or the like and they seem to enforce, AASHTO Standard Specifications for Structural Supports for Highway Signs, Luminaires and Traffic Signals. That is outside my realm of knowledge, but it seems like no one is enforcing separation, unless its a fairly large pole that gets field installed PVC conduit. There will be no easy way to make that happen in a 4" pole. You could prewire but insist in the manual, the installer is solely responsible to determine suitability of said materials, just doesn't sound very good.

You might find others would be able to offer more if posted a new question from a transportation equipment angle. Each state has different regulations on that field, and there are many experts of many things here.
 
And many helpful folks here too. Thanks for the answers.
I think you are right that I need to rephrase some questions for other sections. I will craft better subjects and headlines than I did here. I'm learning...
 
Our EPA wind loading engineering was done long ago.
Yes for the ANSI standards - however, most of what is there concerns poles for lighting - just like the NEC codes.
That's what we keep running into. The minute you have no luminaries, there just isn't a whole lot that applies.
 
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