Less capable electricians

[petersonra]

Re: Less capable electricians

I find that there is such a wide range of skill levels out there that it is almost impossible to tell what might happen to field work on my projects.

The thing is that tradesmen tend to settle in to certain areas, and they get really good at doing that, but their skills in other areas are not good.

I am not all that surprised that this is the case. Electricians who spend years wiring houses around here might not have run a whole lot of EMT in that whole time. It would not surpise me if he had trouble doing so.

I do continue to be shocked at the sheer numbers of electricians I run across who are just plain unable to read schematics. And I am talking real simple ones too.

The conduit they run might be works of art, but when they can't follow the drawings because they just can't read them, it irks me. It also scares me just a little bit.

But its not as if this is a new situation. People (and most electricians are indeed people) get real good at stuff they do, and forget the things they learned they don't get any practice in.

 

[iwire]

Re: Less capable electricians

Bob I agree with you, there are types of electric work that I excel at and types of electric work I am poor at.

You kind of answered your own question about the reading of schematics.

There are very few times I need to work from schematics.

I power a lot of machinery, I hardly every have to wire the interconnections.

FWIW I can read schematics and prints.

 

[erodriguez]

Re: Less capable electricians

On two separate occasions I've participated in a "Career Day" event for a school district in the Houston Area for Juniors and Seniors. The first event I noticed the larger rooms were packed full of students eager to hear from doctors, lawyers, colleges and universities. We had a time slot of 45 minutes to "sell" our trade to High school students. We were confined to a significantly smaller room in the back. We were very disappointed that NOT one student was interested in becoming an electrician. Towards the end of your time slot one student with his parents entered our room, until they realized they were in the wrong room.
The second event was similar, but set up in a "EXPO" style. Same results. Not one student showed any interest in our trade. They wanted our free pencils.
The reality is, our profession does not attract "academic achievers". It bothers me that the emphasis is on professions like doctors, lawyers, business executives, etc. When in reality, some (I actually started to say majority but I have no figures) of those students will never see the inside of a college classroom, much less be doctors or lawyers.
What can we do? Shows like "ER", "CSI", "Law and Order" glamorize those occupations. I doubt we'll ever see a prime time show about electricians.
Just my opinion.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Less capable electricians

One of the problems is that most schools have given up on preparing students to enter anything but college (and most public schools do a failing job of that too).

When I was going to high school (I graduated in 1976) the school actually had pretty well thoughout "shop" classes. They did encourage some people who were not interested in college to consider there are other options.

I admit it was true that wood shop was also a place to stick dumb as rock football players for an hour a day, but some of the shop classes actually were usefull, and I suspect they encourage the kids in them to look at a trade as a career.

Personally, I consider a skilled trade a perfectly acceptable option. It takes every bit as long to learn to do it well as career tracks that require a college degree. And it is well paying.

Sadly, most schools these days can't even graduate students who can read, much less prepare them for life. It's a sad commentary on the state of the local schools that half the local JC college's classes are remedial. They have a whole series of 0XX level classes designed basically to teach graduates from the local public schools to do simple arithmatic and basic reading skills.

They are not even graduating kids with skills that qualify them to work at KMart, much less a skilled trade where only half the work is with your hands, and the other half is with what is between your ears.

 

[cpal]

Re: Less capable electricians

The problem lies in the public. The schools fulfill a requirement of the district that pays the bills. Every parent wants to have a brain surgeon, and the school district has to meet those expectations.

I had a guidance counselor dress me down because I told a group of eight graders the average pay of journeymen in my area ( I was conservative).

I had to chuckle

Charlie P

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Less capable electricians

I have been teaching electrical classes at two community colleges on a part time basis for the past five years. For the past two years I have undertook the entire curriculum for electrical at one of these community colleges and am still part time. Both CCs have certificate and diploma, but no degree programs for electrical. Both push automation and electronics on a college entry level. Both have full time instructors for this field.
This is very confusing to me as most jobs that are listed in this area are for electricians or maintenance men with a strong electrical back ground. Some will require a background in PLC but have not seen a maintenance job posted for just PLC and automation.
At each meeting I always ask, ?How much good is an automatic machine if there is no one with enough talent to install a service for it?? How many homes, strip malls or grocery stores have you been in lately that are controlled with automation technology?
I remember when I started in the electrical trade in the ?60s every electrican I meet was an old man. We are almost there again.

[ February 19, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Less capable electricians

in the ?60s every electrican I meet was an old man. We are almost there again.

As usual there is a silver lining to every cloud.
Just think of how much money us "old guys" will be worth when there isn't enough electricians to get the work done.

Or meybe I'm dreaming.

Ed

 

[shawn474]

Re: Less capable electricians

Electricians know what they are taught - perhaps the title of this thread should have been 'Less Capable Instructors'...? Whose fault is it that these less capable people have licenses?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Less capable electricians

I have deleted a number of posts in this thread. We are not going to have union vs nonunion discussions in this forum.
Don

 

[jfunder]

Re: Less capable electricians

Don makes a good and valid point. I worked for a trade college for a while and the admissions departmnent continued to fight a large battle on that very point. High school counselors do not steer good stock to the trades. You can not simply put blame there though. It is a societal issue. The United States populous does not regard "blue collar" very high. Consequently, the more talented, driven, and capable kids do not choose trades such as electrical even though you do have to possess those traits to succeed.

How do you proceed to an answer for the problem from here? Systematic and detailed mass media campaigning to attempt to reverse our nose direction when looking at "blue collar" trades.

 

[charlie]

Re: Less capable electricians

I do not believe the various trade organizations are working with the high school counselors enough to keep them informed about the advantages of the electrical trade. It is tough to get people into a trade where they think it is just working with my hands and I don't really need any math or I don't have to think a lot. As you well know, this trade is not like that at all.

 

[jfunder]

Re: Less capable electricians

I do not believe the various trade organizations are working with the high school counselors enough to keep them informed about the advantages of the electrical trade.

Good Point

 

[defoor]

Re: Less capable electricians

Hello, I am a new member to these boards, however I am thankful to see that there are other electricians who need a place to express their concerns about the positives and negatives of our trade. I was started in the electrical field by my stepfather in Houson,Texas, he was passionate about his job, and he took pride in his work. The company we worked for in Houston mainly did new construction, and 90% was schools and community colleges. My stepfather taught me that with this trade you had a responsibilty to do the job right; because there would be people in these buildings, and if you did shotty work, your negligence could kill folks. The problem I see mostly in day to day situations is RUSH, everyone is in a rush, every GC wants you to hurry, hurry, O yeah and hurry some more, there is no more time to do a quality job, people just want it NOW. This will continue with a decline in workmanship even more. I don't think that the elctricians these days are less qualified, as much as they were trained to cut as many corners as possible to hurry up and get the job DONE.
GC's and Business owner need to understand that electrical work is not something you can rush, it has to be done right the first time, before someones negligence kills someone. When I walk onto a new job I always tell myself..." ok, do this job right, your family or friends might shop, or live in this peticular building, so do it right" thats what keeps me from cutting corners, I don't want someones death on my conscience because a GC or owner decided that opening on a certain date is more important than peoples lives.

 

[bigjohn67]

Re: Less capable electricians

If I may:
Ive had friends who went to college and worked in a field of their study. Then came corporate cutbacks. 4,6, 8 months without work.
As an electrician, I own my knowledge!
I have never been out of work!
Wouldn't trade it for the world. As a previous post stated, it has become part of who I am.

 

[luckyshadow]

Re: Less capable electricians

I think this problem has many sides -
The one place I have not heard anyone comment on is the bigger Electrical Contractors themselves !
Thats right our own people ! Bare with me I am not saying ALL big E.C.'s are guilty of this, but I have seen it here in Maryland. The big E.C.'s hire some kids right out of high school,put them with another worker and send them out to wire house's. This green guy is not encourged to attend apprenticeship school. He is taught how to wire a house. when he learns this he is called a mechanic. Then he gets his own truck, given a new green hire and sent out to wire houses.(If he is smart this whole process takes less then a year) The whole thing is repeated over and over.
I have met guys who have been doing electrical work for years and do not know anything other then how to wire a house. I mean they do not know the basics - ohms law, circuit lay out , code, motors, how to bend conduit, etc etc.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with wiring houses for a living but I feel that when a company hire's a green helper , the company should do everything possible to encourage this helper to become an apprentice and get educated in the electrical field.

 

[brian john]

Re: Less capable electricians

The older one get's the more likely he/she is to think the next generation just does not have what we had.

The good old days weren't as good as we think.

52 years old, 35 years in the trade and there are electricians as stupid today as they were then, and then again there are some pretty sharp ones. All depends on how one applies oneself.


Gotta open the books, while someone can tell you about an aspects of a project, reading and hands on expierence are the best educators.

 

[iam14sure]

Re: Less capable electricians

Let me share my thought. I have been an inspector in two states, held a masters license and contractors ( administration) in both states and have been a state certified instructor both in the IBEW and private industry. I say this just because I am new here. Believe it or not I am Pastor and also teach college level electrical courses as well. Anyway, I seems that there are always a few excellent student and those who just don't care. I have had students that were high on drugs and others who were obviously drunk. Although we attempt to teach them what they need to be successful, how do you teach them honesty, integrity, and just plain good sense. I am amazed at how poorly some of these students do. I have been only teaching 6 years but I do know that States that require apprenticeship training to work in the field produce better electricians.
I am convinced times and culture have changed. Thanks for listening.

 

[69boss302]

Re: Less capable electricians

Just like to through in another comment on this issue.

I think trades cause a lot of their own problems because of what some have been saying here. We expect people to come into the trade knowing things already (I'm not just talking about electricians either). Then when one does come along that does know something instead of teaching them most of the time, we like to treat them like we were treated, and not to teach them humility like we think it accomplishes but just, to quote what's usually said "Hey if I went through it you have to go through", and think that's going to justify their treatment and convince them that it will make them a better electrician. Some of us old timers (holy cow am I an old timer) need to open up a little and admit that we can learn something new also. I think that was the most important thing I learned as an instructor, was that I learned more than my trainees did quit often. Not just from them either but from when they asked the preverbal "stupid question" (which I don't think that there are any), I learned how to deal with my own lack of knowledge to answer said stupid question, plus I also learned how to better communicate the next time so that said stupid question could be addressed before someone got to the point where he just didn't understand.

No I don't think we have to baby these kids either, they do have to grow up and learn that you have to work to make a living but we take it a bit to far, and if you do have some one that is talented or even wants to learn, and you make him feel stupid or worthless, well he's going to go some where that he doesn't feel that way and obviously he will make it where ever he ends up and his experience with the trade will be negative and will deal poorly with the professionals of the trade. What goes around, comes around.

 

[caosesvida]

Re: Less capable electricians

I think what has driven the change, is the concept of the importance of profit and money. It is driving the culture, in all trades. Cut throats and cut backs, qaulity is not the goal it seems anymore. Probably has been declining for a while now. BUT as stated there were bad electricans from the get go. AS well as very excellent ones. And the ones in the middle. Probably the percentage of those groups hasn't changed , but the total population has so it seems like there are more bad ones!