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The problem I see here is the use of the number of switched wires determining if a fan-rated box is required. Just looking for a 14-3 doesn't mean they are both switched. I routinely instally 14-3, but the black may or may not be switched.

I can see this is going to cause a few heated arguments during inspections.
 
Chris6245 said:
Must have got cut....It's not in the actuall book either
I did not like the idea,... so I won't be shedding any tears, Does anyone know where I could find the discussion that must have taken place???
 
To his credit and to my embarrassment, I should a read all the words, prior to his analysis he stated ,

This article provides an overview based on code-making panel actions taken on the proposals in the first stage of the development process.

Sorry for the confusion everyone
 
M. D. said:
When they originally called you,.. did you not give them a ballpark estimate ?? Did you expect to find a fan box installed for a kitchen light??

I did give a range to hang the fan with a statement that if when I got there and found that the existing box would need to be replaced the price would go up some.

I don't think the HO heard what I was saying because they already had in their mind I would the existing box.

Due to the part of town the home is in I expected that the ceiling outlet could be used.
 
1793 said:
I did give a range to hang the fan with a statement that if when I got there and found that the existing box would need to be replaced the price would go up some.

Yeah , I know what you mean . Where I am there is knob and tube and nasty BX sill in use, and many old homes which have every thing under the sun... . I get 250 when it is a simple box change on romex and it goes up from there .
 
Hey, you're called to hang a fan. No problem. Don't give them any options. The first thing you do is get a ladder, get your needle-nose pliers in along side that fiberglass box, and proceed to start breaking it out in pieces. It's part of hanging a new fan. You just gotta change out those non-compliant boxes if the fan has a small canopy such that it must be supported from the box. The "hugger" style, with a very large canopy can just have the bracket bolted to the ceiling joist beside the box, since the canopy will also cover the old box when mounted in this configuration. Most fans I'm presented with have the small 5" or so canopy, so changing out the box is just part of the job. I don't give my customers the option of meeting code or not.
 
We have taken a deep octogon fan-box, and drilled holes in the side, and screwed it directly to the joist in place of a plastic or fiberglas box. Works like a charm! :grin:
 
kbsparky said:
We have taken a deep octogon fan-box, and drilled holes in the side, and screwed it directly to the joist in place of a plastic or fiberglas box. Works like a charm! :grin:
Maybe so. I know that the Smart Box people make an old work fan rated box that bolts to the joist that way. It's nice for when you break out an old ceiling box that was attached to the side of the joist. If it was a hanger style box, and there's no access from above, the spreader bar type is still the way to fly.

SBFAN.jpg
 
480sparky said:
The problem I see here is the use of the number of switched wires determining if a fan-rated box is required. Just looking for a 14-3 doesn't mean they are both switched. I routinely instally 14-3, but the black may or may not be switched.
It actually says two switched conductors.
 
I routinely carry several fan-box types with me:

The expanding-bar box

The half-saddle plastic box

The side-mount metal box
 
LarryFine said:
It actually says two switched conductors.

It doesn't say anything ,.. it was left on the floor.

You should read the reason for the neg. votes in the rop I'd post them but they are quite long.

Where would I find the document where it was killed after first being accepted????
 
There were more but this guy seemed to hit the ball pretty square,... if any are interested



9-28 Log #1210 NEC-P09


Final Action: Accept




(314.27(D))


____________________________________________________________




Submitter:







James W. Carpenter, International Association of Electrical




Inspectors


Comment on Proposal No:





9-60





Recommendation:


The Proposal should be Rejected.





Substantiation:


Electrical inspectors should not be put in the position of




enforcing requirements motivated by an assumption of future actions on the

part of an owner. There was no fact-finding work to support the proposal, only

a very questionable assertion of a likely outcome. UL 507 requires clearly
visible markings on the outside of the carton for ceiling-suspended (paddle)
fans as well as statements in the installation instructions regarding proper
support for these fans.
The scenario presented in the proposal therefore amounts to a subterfuge.
If the new owners are aware that they will be installing paddle fans on
substandard boxes, then it is a conspiracy and the NEC cannot be written in
such a way as to preclude such effects. If the new owners are not aware of
the rules, and if the builders tell them that a fan with conventional mounting
arrangements is an option, then such owners are the victims of a fraud. Listed
fan boxes present such little marginal cost in comparison to the significant
risk to those who would perpetrate such a practice that the likelihood of this
practice being widespread seems remote. Although wiring such ceiling boxes
for future fan use is noted from time to time, the usual condition is to supply
fan boxes in those cases. Furthermore there are other legitimate reasons for
running multiple switched conductors to ceiling boxes.
Many chandeliers are wired with one set of lamps controlled independently
from the remaining lamps. Many ceilings are wired with multi-circuit
lighting track for which such switching arrangements are required. An
additional switched conductor may be run to an overhead outlet box because
the electrician knows that although the wall will not be accessible after
construction, the ceiling will be (as in an unfinished attic) and there will be an
additional light provided for accent lighting. Some wiring layouts, even at the
time of the rough inspection, have an additional switched conductor entering a
ceiling box and then extended to a switched receptacle or second lighting outlet
in the same room.
In addition, fan boxes are not and never have been the only acceptable method
of hanging a paddle fan. They are only required when the box is the sole
support of the fan. One major paddle fan manufacturer is now producing an
enormous volume of paddle fans (sold through major home supply channels)
that come complete with installation directions that do not recognize fan box
support, and that instead call for direct support of the fan bracket using long
screws that extend through the standard mounting hole pattern of steel boxes
and into framing above the box.
The proposal applies to any ceiling outlet box, even one too close to a wall to
be used for a paddle fan, and even one in a commercial or industrial occupancy
for which no conceivable paddle fan use would be likely. In addition, there
are many applications for which no fan box is now and ever would be likely
available. For example, there are no plaster rings now listed for fan support,
because of the obvious difficulties involved in attempting to cover all possible
combinations in a testing laboratory. The inspection community should never
be forced to routinely apply 90.4 (which requires special permission) for all
these legitimate applications, both residential and nonresidential.
The proposal violates the fundamental principles of the scope of the NEC
in 90.1. A ceiling outlet box wired as described in the proposal is entirely
safe until and unless a paddle fan is mounted in such a way that the box is
the sole support of the fan. And 90.1(B) clearly tells us that NEC compliant
installations today may not be suitable for future uses tomorrow.
What stands between today and tomorrow is qualified, disinterested thirdparty
inspection. If some jurisdictions are seeing the instances described in the
proposal substantiation, it can only be because these jurisdictions have failed
to create a regulatory environment that supports such inspections. This was the
importance of the “Inspection Initiative” in the 1990s. Without inspection (and
also without product standards) the NEC becomes invalid on its face, and our
electrical safety system unravels. Rules based on a presumption of the absence
of inspection create a completely misleading sense of security.





Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results:







Affirmative: 8 Negative: 3





Explanation of Negative:


BELISLE, R.: See my explanation of negative vote on Comment 9-22.

RUPP, B.: NEMA understands that the wording of the original proposal
would add requirements to installations that were not intended to be covered,
however the panel should have worked to correct the problems rather than
reversing its action at the proposal stage. It is our opinion that the practice
of installing “spare” circuit conductors to a location such as a bedroom light
without installing an outlet box or system designed to support a fan is a
potential safety issue.
SZENDRE, M.: See my explanation of negative vote on Comment 9-22.




 
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