Liability and safety concerns for these type of installations?

[joe tedesco]

Please comment on the liability and safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should, or can be performed by:

Licensed electricians or unlicensed personnel when installed in industrial, commercial, and residential buildings.

1. Nailing boxes to framing members, and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.

2. Drilling wooden studs, or punching metal studs for, and installing raceways or cables.

3. Installing panelboard cabinets in working spaces about electrical equipment.

4. Installing electrical equipment, materials and using electrical tools.

5. Installing temporary lighting strings for construction sites.

6. Installing cable connectors to nonmetallic and metal enclosures.

7. Installing equipment bonding jumpers in metal boxes.

8. Stapling cables to wooden framing members.

9. Assembling lighting fixtures, switchboards, and motor control centers..

10. Installing fixtures (lights) in suspended fire rated ceilings to ceiling grids.

11. Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in recessed fixtures.

12. Nailing recessed lighting fixtures to ceiling joists.

13. Installing underground raceways or cables for service laterals, feeders, and branch circuits in trenches.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Joe,
I think the answers will only be found in local code requirements. The NEC does not address the issue of who installs the electrical system, only how it is to be installed.
Don

 

[realolman]

I think any of those could be done, and probably are done, by someone with a minimum of training.


# 4 seems rather broad, and # 5 seems to me to be the most hazardous...


Other than that, I would say none of these tasks seem particularly hazardous, or requiring of great expertise.

I'll be waiting to find out why I'm terribly wrong.

 

[infinity]

Around here to guy installing the stuff is more than likely the only one who will know if it's code compliant. Inspections are usually a bare minimum. So the guy who's stapling the cable to the stud or putting the conductors into a raceway will ultimately be the one who will ensure code compliance. For that reason it's only reasonable that the installer have some knowledge of codes and standards regarding what they're installing.

 

[joe tedesco]

90.2(A) Scope

90.2(A) Scope

..... and:

"90.2 Scope

(A) Covered This Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:

(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings

(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations

FPN to (2): For additional information concerning such installations in an industrial or multibuilding complex, see ANSI C2-2002, National Electrical Safety Code.

(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect to the supply of electricity

(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a generating plant, substation, or control center."

New Jersey has the idea, and I hope that we can put some rules next to each item in the list I posted. I could give a few, and ask if you will agree, but I am sure that those who have been using the NEC will, and will support the need for "qualified persons"

Remember: "unlicensed personnel may also include those who stand in the lot near the freeway, roadway, turnpike, or Broadway, waiting to be hired for the day so they can make a few dollars"!

I have seen this happen many times when I lived in California and Texas. I looked across the street at the new multifamily dwelling being built, you should have seen them run back into the big white truck when I walked along the interior looking for the real estate person! I was wearing a Hard hat!

This has been happening everywhere for a long time, even happened when the underground conduits are installed.

Look for the story soon, and see the duct tape that was used when the installer broke, or cracked the RNMC near the Haymarket. :smile:

 

[iwire]

Yes the NEC covers those items.

It is up to the local jurisdiction to determine and enforce the requirements to do the work referenced by the NEC.

Here in MA a homeowner can, without permits or inspections, perform all those tasks with impunity from the State.

 

[dduffee260]

Joe, as you probably know in Texas now you have to have at the minimum an apprentice license to do electrical work for a contractor. In our company everyone has one except for the office staff.

Since Texas went state wide with the licensing it has flooded the market with licensed journeymen. The pay scale dropped like crazy because thousands of the new journeymen got the license, but in realty they are not even good 2nd year apprentices.

They say in about 20 years it will clean things up with this like the plumbing licensing program did.

 

[joe tedesco]

http://www.license.state.tx.us/electricians/elec.htm

http://www.license.state.tx.us/electricians/elec.htm

Joe, as you probably know in Texas now you have to have at the minimum an apprentice license to do electrical work for a contractor. In our company everyone has one except for the office staff.

Since Texas went state wide with the licensing it has flooded the market with licensed journeymen. The pay scale dropped like crazy because thousands of the new journeymen got the license, but in realty they are not even good 2nd year apprentices.

They say in about 20 years it will clean things up with this like the plumbing licensing program did.

I am on their mailing list and receive reports on the cease and desist orders:

http://www.license.state.tx.us/electricians/elec.htm

 

[joe tedesco]

Homeowner work in MA

Homeowner work in MA

City of Melrose, MAInspection Services

John Luther​

Building Commissioner
(781) 979-4135

Inspections@cityofmelrose.org ​

http://www.cityofmelrose.org/departments/Inspectserv/Build_guide.htm

Electrical permits may only be issued to a licensed electrical contractor. Journeyman electricians may apply for a permit however a journeyman may not employ and allow others to install fixtures or wiring. Homeowners can not apply for an electrical permit. Because a permit can not be issued to an unlicensed homeowner, the inspector in accordance with code is unable to perform inspections on unlicensed work.

 

[S'mise]

Big List there

Big List there

Here in Michigan home owners are alowed to pull a homeowners permit and do their own electrical work. The ones that concern me are those DIYer's that dont pull any permits. Not exactly #2 but I have seen even EC's that dont know that you should not bore any holes in the upper 1/3 of a wooden floor joist. (Or notch the ends) It deminishes the structural integrety.

 

[iwire]

Electrical permits may only be issued to a licensed electrical contractor. Journeyman electricians may apply for a permit however a journeyman may not employ and allow others to install fixtures or wiring. Homeowners can not apply for an electrical permit. Because a permit can not be issued to an unlicensed homeowner, the inspector in accordance with code is unable to perform inspections on unlicensed work.

I don't see what your trying to point out here.

That does not say a homeowner can not wire in their own home, only that they can not expect the work to be inspected.

 

[iwire]

Journeyman electricians may apply for a permit however a journeyman may not employ and allow others to install fixtures or wiring.

Joe I take it this was not your statement but something from Melrose?

Well IMO it is a false statement.

As a Journeyman I can hire an apprentice and have them perform electrical work.


From 237 CMR 18.00: Rules Governing Practice

237 CMR 18.01: (7) A Journeyman electrician shall have no more than one apprentice under his or her direct supervision or employ.

 

[joe tedesco]

Stae of Massachusetts

Stae of Massachusetts

Joe I take it this was not your statement but something from Melrose?

Bob:

Yes, that is true. I found many more of the same, or similar comments posted on the Internet from Massachusetts cities.

How many DIY jobs have been corrected by licensed electricians in this State, and how many are still being used that are fire and shock hazards?

I posted the same message here and the replies from general contractors, tile setters, and remodelers, etc., are very interesting:

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36365

 

[realolman]

So, what's the whole point of this?... That homeowners must hire contractors and may not do any work in their own home?

I should've known something was up.

I think that is wrong.

Where in the NEC is licensing addressed?

I can't believe the word installation is intended to be construed as a verb, meaning the actual act of installing, or who does the installing, but rather a noun.

When something is supposed to be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner, does that mean the guy should be dressed nicely and practice conservation of movement?

Underground installations... what's that mean?.. the act of crawling through a conduit or tunnelling?

The list was obviously a list of not very difficult tasks. Anybody could do them with a minimum of training. I disdain people who spend their time trying to get legislatures to pass laws forcing people to pay them money for nothing.

 

[joe tedesco]

State Electrical Regulations

State Electrical Regulations

http://www.neca-neis.org/state/

See the rules in your State, see also NFPA 70E, and 70B, both cover the safety of "Qualified Persons".

If you can, please make a comment about each item in the list, for example: See 300.5 for Underground Installations up to 600 volts, etc.

Question: Is an underground Schedule 40 RNMC permitted to be when it is run exposed vertically to the side of a building in a driveway?

The State Electrical Regulations has recently been revised to include updated State information. An invaluable resource for contractors, manufacturers, and others who operate in multiple jurisdictions around the country. This publication summarizes information about electrical codes, code enforcement, and contractor/electrician licensing in every state plus the District of Columbia. Contains contact names and phone numbers for state agencies that regulate electrical construction. This publication is available as a FREE download from the NECA store.

 

[iwire]

Joe I too am missing the point you are trying to make.

Instead of asking us to comment why don't you comment on the subject?

 

[Davis9]

There are also other towns here(MA) that specify differences in permit fees for "homeowner inspections". I don't necessarily agree, but it is what it is.

Tom

 

[joe tedesco]

Reply

Reply

So, what's the whole point of this?... That homeowners must hire contractors and may not do any work in their own home?

I should've known something was up.

I think that is wrong.

Where in the NEC is licensing addressed?

I can't believe the word installation is intended to be construed as a verb, meaning the actual act of installing, or who does the installing, but rather a noun.

When something is supposed to be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner, does that mean the guy should be dressed nicely and practice conservation of movement?

Underground installations... what's that mean?.. the act of crawling through a conduit or tunnelling?

The list was obviously a list of not very difficult tasks. Anybody could do them with a minimum of training. I disdain people who spend their time trying to get legislatures to pass laws forcing people to pay them money for nothing.

http://www.neca-neis.org/state/

See the rules in your State, see also NFPA 70E, and 70B, both cover the safety of "Qualified Persons".

If you can, please make a comment about each item in the list, for example: See 300.5 for Underground Installations up to 600 volts, etc.

Question: Is an underground Schedule 40 RNMC permitted to be when it is run exposed vertically to the side of a building in a driveway?

The State Electrical Regulations has recently been revised to include updated State information. An invaluable resource for contractors, manufacturers, and others who operate in multiple jurisdictions around the country. This publication summarizes information about electrical codes, code enforcement, and contractor/electrician licensing in every state plus the District of Columbia. Contains contact names and phone numbers for state agencies that regulate electrical construction. This publication is available as a FREE download from the NECA store.

 

[joe tedesco]

Reply

Reply

Joe I too am missing the point you are trying to make.

Instead of asking us to comment why don't you comment on the subject?

This was the purpose of my post:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=674844&postcount=18

I can't believe the word installation is intended to be construed as a verb, meaning the actual act of installing, or who does the installing, but rather a noun. :-?

When something is supposed to be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner, does that mean the guy should be dressed nicely and practice conservation of movement? :-?

Underground installations... what's that mean?.. the act of crawling through a conduit or tunnelling? :-?

The list was obviously a list of not very difficult tasks. Anybody could do them with a minimum of training. :-? I disdain people who spend their time trying to get legislatures to pass laws forcing people to pay them money for nothing.

 

[realolman]

Like the guy said in the old TV show.. Let's back the truck up.

You posted a list of tasks that for the most part, seemed to not require much skill or knowledge to perform. You were aware of that, or you wouldn't have posted it.

You asked for comments regarding the safety or liability of unlicensed electricians performing those tasks.

I should've guessed something was up due to the lack of posts, but, a few people, including me, commented.

So, what is your point at that point?

Instead of posting links, quotes and smilie faces how about you answer.