Liability and safety concerns for these type of installations?

[joe tedesco]

Answer

Answer

Like the guy said in the old TV show.. Let's back the truck up.

You posted a list of tasks that for the most part, seemed to not require much skill or knowledge to perform

You were aware of that, or you wouldn't have posted it..

You asked for comments regarding the safety or liability of unlicensed electricians performing those tasks.

I should guessed something was up due to the lack of posts, but, a few people, including me, commented.

So, what is your point at that point?

Instead of posting links, quotes and smilie faces how about you answer.

maintenance mechanic

My bold: Not true!

Do you own a copy of NFPA 70?

If so you should be able to give the reasonable answers, to the items in the list.

If not, say so and then the discussion can begin.

I already gave you a reference concerning the underground issues that was designed to call attention to the rule, and not to the act of crawling through a conduit or tunnelling, etc.

 

[realolman]

How about we stick to your thread... Instead of trying to smear me.

You have yet to answer ,"What was your point in your list of obviously easy tasks?"

BTW when you change the font in a quote it's no longer a quote

 

[petersonra]

In all cases these tasks should be performed by someone competent to do them. Licensing may or may not be involved.

All these tasks you listed are done on a regular basis by limited skill people quite safely.

 

[George Stolz]

Folks, let's not get angry.

I too would like to see Joe's opinion on his list, I'm curious where he is taking this, or if he has opinions on the matter.

Around here, homeowners are allowed to work on their own houses, as long as they get the permits and are inspected. Do these installations often fall short of professionalism? Yes. Are they necessarily unsafe? Not always.

So then, what's your conclusion, Joe?

 

[realolman]

I don't know what your point is by posting what I listed as my occupation. Perhaps you'd be kind enought to explain.

 

[petersonra]

Are they necessarily unsafe? Not always.

The same thing could be said quite truthfully about the work of anyone.

Unlicensed does not equal unsafe or unqualifed. Nor is there any actually evidence that uninspected work is more likely to be unsafe.

My guess is that the vast majority of unlicensed and/or uninspected work is quite safe, or there would have long ago been a whole lot of fires that have not happened.

 

[joe tedesco]

My position

My position

Folks, let's not get angry.

I too would like to see Joe's opinion on his list, I'm curious where he is taking this, or if he has opinions on the matter.

Around here, homeowners are allowed to work on their own houses, as long as they get the permits and are inspected. Do these installations often fall short of professionalism? Yes. Are they necessarily unsafe? Not always.

So then, what's your conclusion, Joe?

George:

Everyone seems to agree that these tasks are easy ones, and I will agree only if it was made clear to the installers that there are certain NEC and other rules that must be followed when installing this equipment.

If you hired a laborer, or other person who was not a qualified person in accordance with the Article 100 definition, you would have to teach them about the requirements in the NEC, such as protection from physical damage, box rules, working space, fixture supports, etc., the list goes on.

An instructor would need about two hours to discuss this with the crew that was hired to do this type of work.

I hope this helps to explain my position, and why I posted this question, if not I can continue.

 

[iwire]

Unlicensed does not equal unsafe or unqualifed.

I agree, I know licensed electricians that should not be wiring a lamp.

Nor is there any actually evidence that uninspected work is more likely to be unsafe.

Hmmm, that ones a tough one...'actual evidence'.

However I don't think we can deny that people in general will perform better if they expect to be checked on. This might be a quality control inspection in a factory, field visits to a construction site by the engineers, a private inspector hired by the owner or a tax payers paid inspector.

The fact that inspections do find problems and force corrections is proof positive that a inspection process adds to safety.

 

[iwire]

If you hired a laborer, or other person who was not a qualified person in accordance with the Article 100 definition, you would have to teach them about the requirements in the NEC, such as protection from physical damage, box rules, working space, fixture supports, etc., the list goes on.

An instructor would need about two hours to discuss this with the crew that was hired to do this type of work.

2 Hours?

'New guy, you take these boxes and you screw them on the studs where marked out by the experienced worker. When you done with that come see me and I will tell you how to mount a lighting fixture on the marks placed by one of experienced workers.'

I really don't need new hires to know the NEC.

 

[joe tedesco]

Sounds reasonable

Sounds reasonable

2 Hours?

'New guy, you take these boxes and you screw them on the studs where marked out by the experienced worker. When you done with that come see me and I will tell you how to mount a lighting fixture on the marks placed by one of experienced workers.'

I really don't need new hires to know the NEC.

Sounds reasonable, is the New Guy a laborer, or other person who is not a qualified person" or was he/she an apprentice electrician who is officially documented by the State?

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.

FPN: Refer to NFPA 70E-2004, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training requirements.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Sounds reasonable, is the New Guy a laborer, or other person who is not a qualified person" or was he/she an apprentice electrician who is officially documented by the State?

No apprenticeship licencing in MD. I was working over 2 years before starting in an apprenticeship.

 

[realolman]

"The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no requirements related to the registration, certification or licensure of contractors (or their employees) that are engaged in the construction industry. "


Where does the NEC address licensing, which was the qualifying condition in your first post?

 

[tallgirl]

Joe, as you probably know in Texas now you have to have at the minimum an apprentice license to do electrical work for a contractor. In our company everyone has one except for the office staff.

You should have them apply as well

Since Texas went state wide with the licensing it has flooded the market with licensed journeymen. The pay scale dropped like crazy because thousands of the new journeymen got the license, but in realty they are not even good 2nd year apprentices.

They say in about 20 years it will clean things up with this like the plumbing licensing program did.

There's a proposed bill in the Texas legislature that will supposedly put a time limit on how long someone can hold an apprentice license. That might help some with the number of people who hold journeypeep cards going forward.

And I guess I'm unclear on how good the average 2nd year apprentice is supposed to be -- I've seen a lot of variation in how good anyone is, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice. I can hold my own against most residential apprentices, and some journeypeeps. So maybe a discussion of what skills are expected for each amount of experience would make for an interesting thread.

 

[iwire]

Sounds reasonable, is the New Guy a laborer, or other person who is not a qualified person" or was he/she an apprentice electrician who is officially documented by the State?

What difference does that make in the safety of the installation?

 

[roger]

IMO. a New Guy that is nailing up boxes and has been trained (or learned from experience ) in the safe operation of the hammer verses smashing his/her fingers is Qualified to perform the task. This would also be true of any particular item in the list.

Being Qualified in every asspect of electricity and it's code compliant installation is not necessary for all tasks involved with said installations.

BTW, the link is not correct/accurate as far as NC is concerned.

Roger

 

[dduffee260]

Why is it when a New Guy starts work he automatically nails up boxes? What if the New Guy was hired to pull a feeder run of 500 Kcmil? How about the New Guy learning how to connect a light fixture? There is alot more to the trade than nailing up boxes.

Hi Joe, I remember hearing you speak at a McCormick Users Conference about 7 years ago. I remember you saying something about Encompass, how they could not keep going at the pace they we on. By the way, where are they now? I knew they went BK but do they even exist now?

 

[roger]

What if the New Guy was hired to pull a feeder run of 500 Kcmil? How about the New Guy learning how to connect a light fixture? There is alot more to the trade than nailing up boxes.

Exactly, that is basically what I said too.

To be pulling on to rope, pulling on a roll of 500 helping to help feed, to spin a few wire nuts and install a couple of screws for a fixture, to drill holes in studs, to attach a couple of slack wires to a fixture, etc... sure doesn't take a person "Qualified" in all aspects of the trade.

IMO, anybody can do the items in the list.


Roger

 

[petersonra]

Sounds reasonable, is the New Guy a laborer, or other person who is not a qualified person" or was he/she an apprentice electrician who is officially documented by the State?

I think you need to look at what the tasks are and what someone would need to know to do those particular tasks. Every master electrician started knowing nothing about electrical work and went from there. They did not get master level knowledge and skills first, and then started doing electrical work.

 

[George Stolz]

I hope this helps to explain my position, and why I posted this question, if not I can continue.

Perhaps I'm thickheaded, but I'm not understanding the point.

Yes, there are rules. Laborers, Apprentices, JWs, Master, Instructors, Inspectors, and State Electrical Board Chairpersons are all going to be at varied levels of learning these rules. That's essentially the entire function of these code forums; when you strip this down to the nuts and bolts of raw functionality, we are here to close the gaps and accelerate each other's understanding of codes.

I do not understand what you're getting at. Regardless of the amount of time spent training, how smart you are, whether the card in your wallet says "Showtime Video" or "Chief Master Electrician Extraordinaire", all that matters to the electrons flowing through the system is how it is physically assembled.

The NEC gives us instructions about what a finished product is supposed to be, and even delves into how it's to be assembled, here and there.

It says very little about who is to do the work.

Are you saying you'd like to see that change, is that what you're getting at? I'm genuinely unclear as to the message you're trying to get across. If you could give me one key statement and underline it, or something - genuinely, I do not see where this is going. That's not always a bad thing.

Another key aspect to this discussion is the fact that everyone participating in it is at different points in the river - to the 2 week apprentice, it may seem like a tough list. To a 30 year Master, the items are like breathing, they can't understand how someone could not know how to do it, even with absolutely no training.

The fact that each AHJ creates their own policies on the matter adds to this confusion.

So in that respect, this appears to be an attempt to simply stir up trouble by making plain the differences between us all, and poking it with a stick. I hope this is not just an attempt to provoke an argument simply for a Sunday diversion, because that will just tick everybody off, start the namecalling, and end up with the thread in the dumpster anyway.

 

[joe tedesco]

Not true George!

Not true George!

So in that respect, this appears to be an attempt to simply stir up trouble by making plain the differences between us all, and poking it with a stick. I hope this is not just an attempt to provoke an argument simply for a Sunday diversion, because that will just tick everybody off, start the namecalling, and end up with the thread in the dumpster anyway.

Not true George, let's forget the issue, I will see you in person, face to face someday, and will try to explain what happens in the real world around the USA!

This business with the bulletin board discussions, behind a keyboard talking to nicknames, is sometimes not very easy when trying to explain feelings in writing!

I have, and continue to see so many bad, and terrible installations done by people who have no clue, and the people who hire them don't care either, just get the job done for the almighty dollar!

I have only the interest of safety in my mind.

I see here where a few have been able to grasp the flavor of my post, and some who are not aware of the fact that: "electrical work must be done by qualified persons" whomever they are!

See the definition of "Unqualified Person" in 70E

Peace!