License to Survive

[tortuga]

But, if you are an electrician who does all residential, in PVC or NMB mostly, and can understand the code book, plus have passed the basic tests, but yet are not knowledgeable in motor theory, trailer parks, modular homes, marinas, or high voltage and do not work in those areas either, should you be required to learn those before being licensed as a residential electrician?

Yeah its two years +/- of on the job training Plus night school two night a week (IBEW or IEC) and not an easy test. But you don't need the training commercial guys need like how size motor control feeders, work in hazardous locations, hospitals, airports etc (other than agricultural buildings i suppose) , or stuff like that.

In Oregon you can come here and take the Residential JW test and (CA and WA) are similar with legally verified 8000 hours OJT working for a licensed electrician from out of state or country. In state apprentices need 4000 hours plus the state approved apprenticeship of two years.
Then you can get a job making 25 - 45 per hour crawling in attics and under all the stick built 1940's houses pulling new romex. CA to the south and WA to the north have very similar systems. After you get a few years as a residential ( I forget what it is ) you can take the JW test.
Cheers

 

[Coppersmith]

But, if you are an electrician who does all residential, in PVC or NMB mostly, and can understand the code book, plus have passed the basic tests, but yet are not knowledgeable in motor theory, trailer parks, modular homes, marinas, or high voltage and do not work in those areas either, should you be required to learn those before being licensed as a residential electrician?

trailer parks - These are residential.
modular homes - These are residential.
marinas - I've worked on plenty of docks (small marinas) at residences.
motor theory - Recently worked on a large motor powering a large fountain at a residence.
high voltage - If all you do is residential, you will probably not see high voltage, but you are a much more well-rounded electrician if you understand the differences.

 

[Adamjamma]

Actually, I understand a lot more than just the basics and love to learn... but, at my age figure I will be close to 70 before I get enough verified experience to qualify for the JW stuff... all the guys that I worked with and learned from already have their wings..lol

 

[ramsy]

high voltage - If all you do is residential, you will probably not see high voltage, but you are a much more well-rounded electrician if you understand the differences.

Cautious respect should be taught for high-voltages, ubiquitously encountered in neon signs.
Neon-sign transformers convert line voltage from 120-347 V, up to high voltages in the range of 2 to 15 kV, and supply between 18-30 mA; 60 mA on special order.

The high voltage allows a large current to flow, even with light contact against dry skin. The transformer is current-limited, but typically to a level well above the threshold for ventricular fibrillation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon-sign_transformer

 

[tortuga]

Yeah it still is a test and you still need experience. But my point is instead of dumbing down an entire states JW test why not create a limited residential test as a option?
Granted OR and WA do not allow a JW to design any work and have another license for design work.

trailer parks - These are residential.
modular homes - These are residential.
marinas - I've worked on plenty of docks (small marinas) at residences.
motor theory - Recently worked on a large motor powering a large fountain at a residence.
high voltage - If all you do is residential, you will probably not see high voltage, but you are a much more well-rounded electrician if you understand the differences.

Yes to a modular home or trailer on residentialy zoned property for a single family, no to marinas or anything over 240V single phase, under the limited residential license statutes in the western states (see links below).

Anything 'commercially zoned' or used for business occupancy and would be a no go.


https://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/479.630

(Oregon may not have the voltage limitation)

 

[peter d]

Blame public education. But then again most educators are college grad, so... you might be right.

Education does not correlate to truth and common sense. Many people who are "educated" are simply indoctrinated. That's how we ended up with AFCI's.

 

[tortuga]

Cautious respect should be taught for high-voltages, ubiquitously encountered in neon signs.
Neon-sign transformers convert line voltage from 120-347 V, up to high voltages in the range of 2 to 15 kV, and supply between 18-30 mA; 60 mA on special order.

The high voltage allows a large current to flow, even with light contact against dry skin. The transformer is current-limited, but typically to a level well above the threshold for ventricular fibrillation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon-sign_transformer

I knew an old timer that would troubleshoot all the embedded heating cable we have around here with one of those xformers.

Ramsy your down there in CA? You guys did not get state licencing till when '06?

 

[MAC702]

trailer parks - These are residential.
modular homes - These are residential.
marinas - I've worked on plenty of docks (small marinas) at residences.....

That's not his point. They are different in that they have different codes, and different ways of doing things. It should be acceptable to not take work there if you choose not to understand all the differences.

Here, it is a different license to do HVAC work in trailer parks, even though the equipment is identical. You will get in big trouble if you don't have that license, and get caught, even though you are otherwise an HVAC licensed contractor for everything else. The fewer HVAC contractors licensed to do work in trailer parks are pretty policing about looking for other trucks, too.

 

[Adamjamma]

Actually, I am thinking more akin to drivers licenses or ham radio... some people only want to learn enough to do the basics... others as far as driving get all the stuff... air brakes, double trailers, school bus, hazmat..lol... or get all the ham licenses and are upset the code has been done away with..old Morse code that is..lol...

i have an advanced ham license and am licensed in three countries. Have driving licenses 8n three countries as well... in USA I can drive anything from motorcycle to dump truck or school bus...lol... in Jamaica, anything without a trailer... no weight limits... but in UK.. only cars and vans up to a certain weight...

still doing the the same thing ..lol..but different codes... and different sides of the road.

just wonder why it seems one needs to be fully certified in everything before one can start carrying around conduit or pulling wire.. I get why you need better training to design systems but pulling wire is like digging a ditch.. just get dirty and get it done ...lol

 

[tortuga]

That's not his point. They are different in that they have different codes, and different ways of doing things. It should be acceptable to not take work there if you choose not to understand all the differences.

Here, it is a different license to do HVAC work in trailer parks, even though the equipment is identical. You will get in big trouble if you don't have that license, and get caught, even though you are otherwise an HVAC licensed contractor for everything else. The fewer HVAC contractors licensed to do work in trailer parks are pretty policing about looking for other trucks, too.

MAC702 your in Nevada, are electrical licenses state wide there yet?

 

[ramsy]

I knew an old timer that would troubleshoot all the embedded heating cable we have around here with one of those xformers. Ramsy, your down there in CA? You guys did not get state licencing till when '06?

California's License Board was established in 1929, its certification / Journeyman Wireman (JW) Card was mandated ~2006, but most employers are exempt, see CLC §3099.2. It only applies to statutory employees of Electrical licenses C10; not apprentices in training, independent contractors, even if operating under the unlicensed minor work exception §7048, and not other contractor/owner employees doing electrical.

Anyone except C10's can hire electrical workers with no certification, or license. Employer criteria may require experience, but General Contractor laborers, Maintenance companies, Home-Warranty companies, Home owners, tenants, and equipment suppliers, all hire electricians with no JW card. Municipal Inspectors, Utility workers, NRTL technicians, and other Gov. agencies also hire electricians with different requirements.

Permits, Inspections, General liability policies, and the required affiliations are all satisfied by the principle contractor or helper(s), usually the GC. Unless the C10 signs a labor contract to comply with a ratio of apprentice to certified JW cards on the payroll, there's no way certified JW cards must be employed.

 

[tortuga]

California's License Board was established in 1929, its certification / Journeyman Wireman (JW) Card was mandated ~2006, but most employers are exempt, see CLC §3099.2. It only applies to statutory employees of Electrical licenses C10; not apprentices in training, independent contractors, even if operating under the unlicensed minor work exception §7048, and not other contractor/owner employees doing electrical.

Anyone except C10's can hire electrical workers with no certification, or license. Employer criteria may require experience, but General Contractor laborers, Maintenance companies, Home-Warranty companies, Home owners, tenants, and equipment suppliers, all hire electricians with no JW card. Municipal Inspectors, Utility workers, NRTL technicians, and other Gov. agencies also hire electricians with different requirements.

Permits, Inspections, General liability policies, and the required affiliations are all satisfied by the principle contractor or helper(s), usually the GC. Unless the C10 signs a labor contract to comply with a ratio of apprentice to certified JW cards on the payroll, there's no way certified JW cards must be employed.

I always find California laws hard to look up but I found it here:
https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/lab/division-3/3070-3099.5/3099.2

Yes and its pretty hard to be in the business of making residential electrical installations in California without one of those. A C10 is not that easy to get. It requires experience similar to a master in most other states in that you must have at least four years of on-the job experience at a journeyman level or higher. In addition, one must also pass two tests a law and business test and an electrical contractor test.
However if you don't want to work for yourself you can just take the regular JW exam.
California does not have people clamoring to dumb down the test as they have the residential exam right there for ya if you don't pass the a JW exam.

Arkansas and North Carolina both nearby have a residential license as well (last I herd anyway).

Cheers

 

[cowboyjwc]

I always find California laws hard to look up but I found it here:
https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/lab/division-3/3070-3099.5/3099.2

Yes and its pretty hard to be in the business of making residential electrical installations in California without one of those. A C10 is not that easy to get. It requires experience similar to a master in most other states in that you must have at least four years of on-the job experience at a journeyman level or higher. In addition, one must also pass two tests a law and business test and an electrical contractor test.
However if you don't want to work for yourself you can just take the regular JW exam.
California does not have people clamoring to dumb down the test as they have the residential exam right there for ya if you don't pass the a JW exam.

Arkansas and North Carolina both nearby have a residential license as well (last I herd anyway).

Cheers

The thing I found scary was that a lot of people were failing the trade portion and not the business portion.