License to Survive

[petersonra]

Basically it's all about the money.

Yep. That is the way it is supposed to be.

 

[romex jockey]

yeah, well, legislate the brains out of the trade, and there won't be any $$$ in it.

And yeah, there's 'dopey' jobs like running pipe and drilling holes, but there's an NEC code for any of that

and that's exactly what we should expect of anyone apprenticed among the trades.

Anecdotaly following up on those who don't care has been less than a smooth job for me , i've had enough farmers and HO's running pipe badly to last me 3 careers, thx

IE~ it's our work!

~RJ~

 

[HutchElectric]

Personally, I don't have an issue with what some are calling "dumbing down". It really isn't dumbing down so much as making the requirements to get in the trade closer to what they really need to be to safely do the work. There is no reason why it takes a whole lot of training or experience to do certain kinds of electrical work. You really think someone needs to be a licensed apprentice to carry conduit around? or to drill holes in studs? or even to mount boxes to studs? there are plenty of simple electrical tasks that someone with little training or experience could learn to do quite well very fast. why some people think you need to have a license and a 4 year apprenticeship to do those simple tasks escapes me.

code questions are not an issue for the vast majority of electrical work if it is handled properly. the guy doing the labor does not need to know how to size a complex feeder if his job is to drill holes in studs for Romex. All he needs to know for that is a few very simple rules about where the holes should be located and how to use a drill.

Is it really too much to ask for someone acting as an electrician, to be licensed as an electrician? I'm not sure how it works there, but here in Wisconsin its as simple as paying a yearly fee, keeping your card on you, and earning a certain number of continuing education credits a year. Requiring licensing regardless of the difficulty of the task, only drives our wages up, and provides job security. Sure, temp Tommy can hump conduit where you tell him to, but realistically, is that all he's going to do on the job site? It seems to me, it's much easier for everyone if a license is required all across the board.

 

[romex jockey]

Isn't this the premiere site for CEC's?

And hey, we're not the only 'profession' that is required to keep up

I was an emt for 3 decades, sat for a LOT of CEC's thru those years

You want to talk about labor shortage.........but

Would you have wanted me to start a line on, defib, splint , or give drugs to your loves ones if i didn't?

How's about just drive the rig? Dummy job, right? Anyone remember what JFD stands for?

Well we had it embroidered on a hat ,for the noobs


~RJ~

 

[electrofelon]

There is the argument that there is no such thing as a labor shortage, it's just people not willing to pay to get the people/good people/enough people. I watched a documentary on the Alaskan pipeline the other day. The oil companies were on an incredibly tight schedule and told the project manager he could spend something like 10 million more per week (or month or something, whatever it was) to get it done on time. I havnt worked much in the last month (by choice) but make it worth my while, I'll jump on a plane tomorrow....

 

[petersonra]

There is the argument that there is no such thing as a labor shortage, it's just people not willing to pay to get the people/good people/enough people. I watched a documentary on the Alaskan pipeline the other day. The oil companies were on an incredibly tight schedule and told the project manager he could spend something like 10 million more per week (or month or something, whatever it was) to get it done on time. I havnt worked much in the last month (by choice) but make it worth my while, I'll jump on a plane tomorrow....

Part of the problem with licensed professions is that in general licensing is used mostly as a way to restrict the number of people in that profession to keep wages higher. most people have figured that out, so they figure the guy in the parking lot at home Depot can probably do the job as well as a licensed guy for 25% of the price. Most of the time it turns out the parking lot guy does an adequate job and the big cost savings make it an attractive option next time.

 

[romex jockey]

2/3rds of my biz is from those 'parking lot guys' Bob

~RJ~

 

[GoldDigger]

I think my post got lost. I did use the term king for the governor. I also used the term sanctuary city/state which we are. I also used the term illegals and the term prisoners. The last two have been talked about in employment ideas. Guess not PC.

Not so much PC at issue. The use of "king" for governor, IMHO crossed the line into "politics", hence the deletion.
This whole thread has been skirting political advocacy for awhile, so we are keeping a close eye on it. You might want to try rephrasing your post to tweak it to be more of an observation of fact than advocacy.
This is not ElectricianTalk, fortunately, and Mike would like to keep it that way. :lol:

 

[romex jockey]

This whole thread has been skirting political advocacy for awhile, so we are keeping a close eye on it.

It's about advocating ,and keeping our trade a profession , vs. devolving into unskilled labor


On that note, we are here in what is the leading educational forum , because of all the trade related organizations (yes unions too) that fought tooth & nail for us the BE one

That some trade rag, who's primary target is our trades contingent, should pen an article openly advocating the deconstuction of a century's worth of that 'hard earned validity' under the bus is, imho, sacrilege


Matt Halverson may be merely the messenger, but i would encourage anyone of similar sentiment to voice his/her displeasure >>matt.halverson@gmail.com (publicy posted @ end of article)

With the mods permission, i would like tgo invite him into this thread

This is not ElectricianTalk, fortunately, and Mike would like to keep it that way. :lol:

for obvious reasons...

thank you

~RJ~

 

[sameguy]

Not so much PC at issue. The use of "king" for governor, IMHO crossed the line into "politics", hence the deletion.
This whole thread has been skirting political advocacy for awhile, so we are keeping a close eye on it. You might want to try rephrasing your post to tweak it to be more of an observation of fact than advocacy.
This is not ElectricianTalk, fortunately, and Mike would like to keep it that way. :lol:

No problem and appreciate your response. My use of the k-word was due to his actions on a broad front of issues, not party affiliation.
It is difficult to discuss legislation and keep politics out as it is very political; but yes I have seen other boards devolve into total anarchy due to people not being able to hold civil conversations. Something I have no intention or interest in doing, the anarchy part, I'm ok with civil conversation.

 

[GoldDigger]

No problem and appreciate your response. My use of the k-word was due to his actions on a broad front of issues, not party affiliation.
It is difficult to discuss legislation and keep politics out as it is very political; but yes I have seen other boards devolve into total anarchy due to people not being able to hold civil conversations. Something I have no intention or interest in doing, the anarchy part, I'm ok with civil conversation.

Anarchy has its points too....:angel:
Just not here. :happyno:
Good to see this discussion staying on track, and your input is also appreciated.

 

[chris1971]

Tougher licensing requirements would help.

 

[peter d]

Tougher licensing requirements would help.

:happyno::happyno:

 

[romex jockey]

In his penchant to pen Kentucky as some iconic solution for their sparky shortage, Mr. Matt Halverson convieniently leaves out the fact that many states already have instituted provisonal licensure , that which is regulated to specific (usually resi) electrical work ,inclusive of sharper oversight by fully licensed EC's ,along with their liability FOR such entities.

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Vs, the provision licensure surrounding Kentucky.....

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

The REAL root of the problem

~RJ~

 

[tortuga]

I'm wondering how many of you have read 'License to Survive' in this months trade rag here (reg required)

The short version is, the article is pointing out one state's manner of addressing their 'skilled labor drain', via introducing a bill dumbing down the entire process , further pointing to 'first time failure' rates for what WAS the norm for validation , and lauding it all as the shape of our future profession.

I beg to differ.

Kentucky does not have a "limited residential license" I wonder if that would be a better solution. I wonder how many states offer them? I Think the entire west coast does.
What do you guys think?

 

[mbrooke]

The REAL root of the problem

~RJ~

Blame public education. But then again most educators are college grad, so... you might be right.

 

[Coppersmith]

Kentucky does not have a "limited residential license" I wonder if that would be a better solution. I wonder how many states offer them? I Think the entire west coast does.
What do you guys think?

Florida offers a residential only licence. IMHO you still have to understand and apply most (80%?) of the NEC to work in a residence competently. Should electricians have "just enough" training to do the job, or should they be fully competent in at least the broad strokes of the profession before you let them loose on the public? I vote for the latter. If people are unable to pass a competency test, they should work for others who can supervise them until such time as they can pass.

 

[Adamjamma]

Florida offers a residential only license. IMHO you still have to understand and apply most (80%?) of the NEC to work in a residence competently. Should electricians have "just enough" training to do the job, or should they be fully competent in at least the broad strokes of the profession before you let them loose on the public? I vote for the latter. If people are unable to pass a competency test, they should work for others who can supervise them until such time as they can pass.

But, if you are an electrician who does all residential, in PVC or NMB mostly, and can understand the code book, plus have passed the basic tests, but yet are not knowledgeable in motor theory, trailer parks, modular homes, marinas, or high voltage and do not work in those areas either, should you be required to learn those before being licensed as a residential electrician?