Light box used as j-box

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mivey said:
They wanted to run a 14-2 piece of romex for the travelers between two three-way switches.
Click to expand...
I've done that, too, but only with the circuit hot'n'neutral (I know, I know) run with them, like a 4-conductor cable.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I seem to remember something about a proposal to 2008 to enforce the neutral to be run with switch loops. I don't think that got very far. Anybody else remember this?

Could this be what your helper was thinking about.
Click to expand...

That is due to the popularity of automatic switches that have been using the ECG as a return for their control circuits. The code only addresses 'objectionable current' and only a few micro amps are returned from the controls.....for *one* switch. When many are used a problem may arise.

The requirement of pulling in a neutral would circumvent this issue and also be a good marketing approach to entice those that would not think of using the ECG as a return for any reason into using their products.
 
Here is the whole thing, personally I agree with the rejection.



9-84 Log #1962 NEC-P09


Final Action: Reject​






(404.2(C) (New) )​






________________________________________________________________​





TCC Action: It was the action of the Technical Correlating Committee that​






this Proposal be reported as ?Reject? because less than two-thirds of the​






members eligible to vote have voted in the affirmative.​






Submitter:​




Vince Baclawski, National Electrical Manufacturers Association​



(NEMA)​



Recommendation:​




Add text to read as follows:​



404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting
loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit a grounded circuit
conductor shall be provided at the switch location .​



Substantiation:​




There are electronic control devices that require a standby​



current to maintain the ready state of the device. This allows immediate
switching of the load to the ?on? condition. These devices require this standby
current when they are in the ?off? state, i.e., when no current is flowing to the
load. The typical design of these devices may utilize the grounding conductor
for the standby current flow. These products are commonly used for lighting
control.
In many, if not most installations, a grounded conductor is not provided in
the switch box. This forces the design of these control devices to utilize the
grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. This has been tacitly
acknowledged as an operational necessity by a number of UL Standards, which
permit up to a 0.5 ma ground leakage current. The design of the devices
available on the market today use this ground leakage provision in the UL
standard as the means for providing a path for the standby current that is​
required for the operation of the product.




The lack of a grounded conductor in the switch box forces the use of the​



grounding conductor for the operation of the device. Product designers have no
reasonable option but to accommodate the lack of a grounded conductor by
relying on the grounding conductor. Installers will continue to use the
grounding conductor in lieu of the grounded conductor when there is no
grounded conductor available in the switch box.
Many lighting control devices are installed as a means of realizing significant
energy savings associated with the control of lighting circuits. Due to
escalating energy costs and the increased recognition and adoption of energy
saving codes, it is expected that there will be a substantial increase in the
installation of these products. In order to promote the use of these products, the
NEC should recognize an installation practice that requires the appropriate
circuit conductor to be available for the standby operation of the control device.
Although the current design of many lighting control devices relies on the
grounding conductor for conducting current, adopting this proposed
requirement will ensure that future designs will take advantage of the presence
of the grounded conductor in the switch box and no longer compel the design
of the product or installation practice to use the grounding conductor to
conduct the standby current. The availability of a grounded conductor will also
promote the design of many new and improved lighting control products.​



Panel Meeting Action: Reject​






Panel Statement:​




The proposed requirement is a design issue and is the​



responsibility of the installer, and the associated cost should be a choice of the
consumer, not the code panel. See 90.1(B) and (c)
Switches with grounded circuit connections should only be used where a
grounded conductor is present. These devices should not be connected to
equipment grounding conductors per Part VI of Article 250.
The panel agrees that this is a concern but that a more appropriate solution
would be to require manufacturers of products needing additional grounded
conductors to provide appropriate, clearly visible warnings and instructions on
their packaging and installation instructions.​



Number Eligible to Vote: 11​






Ballot Results:​




Affirmative: 6 Negative: 4​






Ballot Not Returned:​




1 de Vega, H.​






Explanation of Negative:​






BELISLE, R.: My notes indicate that CMP-9 was surprised to learn that​



manufacturers are designing switches that operate with low level currents
flowing on the grounded conductor, and when that is not present, by default,
the equipment grounding conductor. This appears entirely legal and deemed
safe in a singular installation. The problem lies in the fact that most aftermarket
switches and homeowner modifications are not installed in just one location,
but several throughout the home and the combined effect of what was a safe
minimal current on the EGC is now additive to create a serious shock hazard.
The submitter?s proposal is all-inclusive and probably not necessary for
commercial and industrial applications, as wiring methods would typically
permit the addition of a grounded conductor to those specific modified
locations. The proposal has merit and should be considered with the additional
language of ? In dwelling locations, switches controlling lighting loads
supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit?
LEMAY, T.: There are many safety and convenience benefits to the electrical
system of an occupancy having a grounded circuit conductor available at an
outlet control point when the control point is wired using a cabled wiring
method.
There are many control devices currently on the market, such as occupancy
sensors, power line carrier devices, and surely more to come that require the
use of a grounded circuit conductor for their operation.
There are instances where the branch circuit could be extended from the
switch box to provide additional outlets or power to other loads in the area of
the switch. There are also instances where the installation of a multi-level
controlled luminaire or paddle fan/light assembly are not contemplated at rough
in and installed after the fact by the end user, requiring an additional insulated
control conductor. This rule would provide for a means to accomplish that task.
I have seen where the equipment grounding conductor was used as a part of a
switch loop system.
Additionally, devices that use the equipment grounding conductor for their
operation produce objectionable leakage current in the ground return path.​





​
Click to expand...
 
Here is part two


OSBORNE, R.: The consensus among panel members is that, for those
devices requiring connection to a grounded conductor, it is imperative that a
grounded conductor be available at the device location. This position is in full
alignment with Article 250 and a long-standing position held by panel 5.
It should be noted that the panel statement is consistent with past decisions by
panel 9, which concluded that it is the responsibility of the installer to ensure
the appropriate conductors are provided at the device box. However, the panel
fails to acknowledge that, without a grounded conductor in a switch box being
mandated in Article 404, improper use of the equipment grounding conductor
is commonplace when these products are installed retroactively.
It appears that there is a potential correlation issue in that the requirements in
Article 250 cannot be satisfied by the decision by panel 9 not to address
grounded conductors in switch loops. The TCC needs to take a closer look at
this proposal and accompanying comments as they relate to satisfying the
requirements of Article 250 to determine if the Code is providing adequate
guidance regarding the installation of devices requiring the use of the grounded​
conductor
The reality is that control devices which need a return path for inboard control
circuitry are becoming much more prevalent in both residential and commercial
installations. As the use of these devices increase, the likelihood that
unintended current will make its way onto equipment grounding conductors
increases. Additionally, proliferation of these devices also increases the
likelihood that, based on the cumulative effects of control currents, higher
levels of unintended current flow will be present on the equipment grounding
conductor.
Acknowledging the ever-increasing use of these devices, the panel should
have concluded that it is time to readdress this issue. A step in the right
direction would be to ?Accept in Principle? the proposal, with additional
language that limits the new requirement to only those installations where it is
impractical to add the grounded conductor at a future date. The reality of such
an exception is that, in most installations where a cable wiring method is used,
the grounded conductor will be required. This would include the majority of
residential applications where the homeowner, unaware of the safety issues
related to current flow on the equipment grounding conductor, would have a
grounded conductor available at all switch locations which control lighting
loads. This exception would have the opposite affect in most commercial
applications where raceways are employed and trained electrical workers
appreciate the needed for a grounded conductor. It is in these applications, due
to the presence of a raceway, that the installer has the ability to install the
required conductor without damage to the building structure or building finish.
To address the submitters concerns, the following text is offered for
consideration:
Add text to read as follows:
404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting
loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit
conductor shall be provided at the switch location.​
Exception: Grounded conductors shall not be required in installations where it
is possible to install conductors into the device boxes without damaging the
building structure or building finish.​
RUPP, B.: Occupancy sensors are permitted by UL773A to have a current of
up to 0.5 ma on the grounding conductor. This is allowed because the operation
of an occupancy sensor requires a low level standby current. The standard
permits this current on the grounding conductor because in a typical installation
there is no grounded circuit conductor in the switch box which can be used as
the return conductor for the standby current. An occupancy sensor can be
installed in any switch location. It is impractical to expect the customer or
installer to anticipate all instances where an occupancy sensor will be installed.
Accepting this proposal will insure that a grounded conductor is available at all
switch locations which will allow occupancy sensors to use the grounded
conductor for conducting standby current instead of using the equipment
grounding conductor.​
Comment on Affirmative:​
HARTWELL, F.: On another proposal (9-60) this panel member took
considerable pains to point out the essential requirement of electrical inspection
as a component of the electrical safety system. This proposal provides a perfect
opportunity to bring in the third component, that of a set of product standards
that assure that products used in electrical systems have been manufactured to
work in the context of the NEC, which is the installation code. With the correct
markings and instructions, these products will be selected and installed, and the
systems designed, so the equipment grounding system will not become a
routine circuit conductor. It was established at the panel meeting that the​
applicable standards are already in the process of modification in this area.
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I seem to remember something about a proposal to 2008 to enforce the neutral to be run with switch loops. I don't think that got very far. Anybody else remember this?

Could this be what your helper was thinking about.
Click to expand...
i remember that, we spoke about it at code seminar we had in our area last year, it was put in because a lot of low voltage dimmers require neutrals to work
 
electricalperson said:
i remember that, we spoke about it at code seminar we had in our area last year, it was put in because a lot of low voltage dimmers require neutrals to work
Click to expand...

But it was turned down because that is a design issue not a safety issue. :cool:
 
Bob, Hoping you don't mind, I redid your two quotes and made them a tad easier to read.

Part 1:



9-84 Log #1962 NEC-P09
Final Action: Reject
(404.2(C) (New) )
__________________________________________________ ______________

TCC Action: It was the action of the Technical Correlating Committee that this Proposal be reported as “Reject” because less than two-thirds of the members eligible to vote have voted in the affirmative.

Submitter: Vince Baclawski, National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA)

Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:

404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit a grounded circuit conductor shall be provided at the switch location.


Substantiation: There are electronic control devices that require a standby current to maintain the ready state of the device. This allows immediate switching of the load to the “on” condition. These devices require this standby current when they are in the “off” state, i.e., when no current is flowing to the load. The typical design of these devices may utilize the grounding conductor for the standby current flow. These products are commonly used for lighting control. In many, if not most installations, a grounded conductor is not provided in the switch box.

This forces the design of these control devices to utilize the grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. This has been tacitly acknowledged as an operational necessity by a number of UL Standards, which permit up to a 0.5 ma ground leakage current. The design of the devices available on the market today use this ground leakage provision in the UL standard as the means for providing a path for the standby current that is required for the operation of the product.

The lack of a grounded conductor in the switch box forces the use of the grounding conductor for the operation of the device. Product designers have no reasonable option but to accommodate the lack of a grounded conductor by relying on the grounding conductor. Installers will continue to use the grounding conductor in lieu of the grounded conductor when there is no grounded conductor available in the switch box.

Many lighting control devices are installed as a means of realizing significant energy savings associated with the control of lighting circuits. Due to escalating energy costs and the increased recognition and adoption of energy saving codes, it is expected that there will be a substantial increase in the installation of these products. In order to promote the use of these products, the NEC should recognize an installation practice that requires the appropriate circuit conductor to be available for the standby operation of the control device.

Although the current design of many lighting control devices relies on the grounding conductor for conducting current, adopting this proposed requirement will ensure that future designs will take advantage of the presence of the grounded conductor in the switch box and no longer compel the design of the product or installation practice to use the grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. The availability of a grounded conductor will also promote the design of many new and improved lighting control products.


Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The proposed requirement is a design issue and is the responsibility of the installer, and the associated cost should be a choice of the consumer, not the code panel. See 90.1(B) and (c). Switches with grounded circuit connections should only be used where a grounded conductor is present. These devices should not be connected to equipment grounding conductors per Part VI of Article 250. The panel agrees that this is a concern but that a more appropriate solution would be to require manufacturers of products needing additional grounded conductors to provide appropriate, clearly visible warnings and instructions on their packaging and installation instructions.

Number Eligible to Vote: 11

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 6 Negative: 4

Ballot Not Returned: 1 de Vega, H.

Explanation of Negative:

BELISLE, R.: My notes indicate that CMP-9 was surprised to learn that manufacturers are designing switches that operate with low level currents flowing on the grounded conductor, and when that is not present, by default, the equipment grounding conductor. This appears entirely legal and deemed safe in a singular installation. The problem lies in the fact that most aftermarket switches and homeowner modifications are not installed in just one location, but several throughout the home and the combined effect of what was a safe minimal current on the EGC is now additive to create a serious shock hazard.

The submitter’s proposal is all-inclusive and probably not necessary for commercial and industrial applications, as wiring methods would typically permit the addition of a grounded conductor to those specific modified locations. The proposal has merit and should be considered with the additional language of “ In dwelling locations, switches controlling lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit.


LEMAY, T.: There are many safety and convenience benefits to the electrical system of an occupancy having a grounded circuit conductor available at an outlet control point when the control point is wired using a cabled wiring method. There are many control devices currently on the market, such as occupancy sensors, power line carrier devices, and surely more to come that require the use of a grounded circuit conductor for their operation. There are instances where the branch circuit could be extended from the switch box to provide additional outlets or power to other loads in the area of the switch.

There are also instances where the installation of a multi-level controlled luminaire or paddle fan/light assembly are not contemplated at rough in and installed after the fact by the end user, requiring an additional insulated control conductor. This rule would provide for a means to accomplish that task. I have seen where the equipment grounding conductor was used as a part of a switch loop system. Additionally, devices that use the equipment grounding conductor for their operation produce objectionable leakage current in the ground return path.
 
Part 2:



OSBORNE, R.: The consensus among panel members is that, for those devices requiring connection to a grounded conductor, it is imperative that a grounded conductor be available at the device location. This position is in full alignment with Article 250 and a long-standing position held by panel 5. It should be noted that the panel statement is consistent with past decisions by panel 9, which concluded that it is the responsibility of the installer to ensure the appropriate conductors are provided at the device box.

However, the panel fails to acknowledge that, without a grounded conductor in a switch box being mandated in Article 404, improper use of the equipment grounding conductor is commonplace when these products are installed retroactively. It appears that there is a potential correlation issue in that the requirements in Article 250 cannot be satisfied by the decision by panel 9 not to address grounded conductors in switch loops. The TCC needs to take a closer look at this proposal and accompanying comments as they relate to satisfying the requirements of Article 250 to determine if the Code is providing adequate guidance regarding the installation of devices requiring the use of the grounded conductor.

The reality is that control devices which need a return path for inboard control circuitry are becoming much more prevalent in both residential and commercial installations. As the use of these devices increase, the likelihood that unintended current will make its way onto equipment grounding conductors increases. Additionally, proliferation of these devices also increases the likelihood that, based on the cumulative effects of control currents, higher levels of unintended current flow will be present on the equipment grounding conductor.

Acknowledging the ever-increasing use of these devices, the panel should have concluded that it is time to readdress this issue. A step in the right direction would be to ?Accept in Principle? the proposal, with additional language that limits the new requirement to only those installations where it is impractical to add the grounded conductor at a future date. The reality of such an exception is that, in most installations where a cable wiring method is used, the grounded conductor will be required. This would include the majority of residential applications where the homeowner, unaware of the safety issues related to current flow on the equipment grounding conductor, would have a grounded conductor available at all switch locations which control lighting loads.

This exception would have the opposite affect in most commercial applications where raceways are employed and trained electrical workers appreciate the needed for a grounded conductor. It is in these applications, due to the presence of a raceway, that the installer has the ability to install the required conductor without damage to the building structure or building finish. To address the submitters concerns, the following text is offered for consideration:

Add text to read as follows:
404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit conductor shall be provided at the switch location. Exception: Grounded conductors shall not be required in installations where it is possible to install conductors into the device boxes without damaging the building structure or building finish.

RUPP, B.: Occupancy sensors are permitted by UL773A to have a current of up to 0.5 ma on the grounding conductor. This is allowed because the operation of an occupancy sensor requires a low level standby current. The standard permits this current on the grounding conductor because in a typical installation there is no grounded circuit conductor in the switch box which can be used as the return conductor for the standby current. An occupancy sensor can be installed in any switch location. It is impractical to expect the customer or installer to anticipate all instances where an occupancy sensor will be installed. Accepting this proposal will insure that a grounded conductor is available at all switch locations which will allow occupancy sensors to use the grounded conductor for conducting standby current instead of using the equipment grounding conductor.


Comment on Affirmative:

HARTWELL, F.: On another proposal (9-60) this panel member took considerable pains to point out the essential requirement of electrical inspection as a component of the electrical safety system. This proposal provides a perfect opportunity to bring in the third component, that of a set of product standards that assure that products used in electrical systems have been manufactured to work in the context of the NEC, which is the installation code. With the correct markings and instructions, these products will be selected and installed, and the systems designed, so the equipment grounding system will not become a routine circuit conductor. It was established at the panel meeting that the applicable standards are already in the process of modification in this area.
 
LarryFine said:
Bob, Hoping you don't mind, I redid your two quotes and made them a tad easier to read.
Click to expand...

I don't mind at all, I thank you. :smile: :cool:

Usually I take the time to format the ROPs but I was lazy. :D
 
iwire said:
I don't mind at all, I thank you. :smile: :cool:

Usually I take the time to format the ROPs but I was lazy. :D
Click to expand...
Yer welcome. It took all of about 5 minutes in Notepad.

It might have been even faster with 'find & replace' in WP.
 
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