Lighting circuits per sqft??

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caddyking951

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I was given a set of prints for a residential remodel by a general contractor and in the electrical notes it states "Provide one light circuit for each 500 S.F. of livable area". But i cannot find it in the 2011 NEC anywhere. I am trying to save time in having to separate all the lights and receptacles onto separate circuits. We are just rehabbing the house and adding the appropriate arc fault, bath gfi, kitchen and laundry circuits. Please help. Thanks
 
caddyking951 said:
I was given a set of prints for a residential remodel by a general contractor and in the electrical notes it states "Provide one light circuit for each 500 S.F. of livable area". But i cannot find it in the 2011 NEC anywhere. I am trying to save time in having to separate all the lights and receptacles onto separate circuits. We are just rehabbing the house and adding the appropriate arc fault, bath gfi, kitchen and laundry circuits. Please help. Thanks
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You need to follow the words in plans as well as the Code that will be enforced at the time.
The code is the minimum. The AE or EE can specify what ever he and the owner desires above the MIN. You always can value engineer with authorization.
 
Your NEC basic rule would call for 3 watts per sq ft (Table 220.12) but there is a whole lot more to be taken into consideration such as required bath, laundry and small appliance circuits.
 
augie47 said:
Your NEC basic rule would call for 3 watts per sq ft (Table 220.12) but there is a whole lot more to be taken into consideration such as required bath, laundry and small appliance circuits.
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That works to about 1500 watts for every 500sqft
 
augie47 said:
Your NEC basic rule would call for 3 watts per sq ft (Table 220.12) but there is a whole lot more to be taken into consideration such as required bath, laundry and small appliance circuits.
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Thank you for the info.
I would think that because table 220.12 is for "general lighting loads by occupancy" that the bath, laundry and small appliance circuits wouldn't be a factor in calculating the lighting load. Also the note(a) after dwelling units refers you to 220.14(J) which states that outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2) and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12 and no additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets. Is this saying that if there are switches already there even off of a receptacle circuit, that i don't have to add a lighting circuit??
 
caddyking951 said:
Thank you for the info.
I would think that because table 220.12 is for "general lighting loads by occupancy" that the bath, laundry and small appliance circuits wouldn't be a factor in calculating the lighting load. Also the note(a) after dwelling units refers you to 220.14(J) which states that outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2) and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12 and no additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets. Is this saying that if there are switches already there even off of a receptacle circuit, that i don't have to add a lighting circuit??
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If the affected sqft area is 2000sqft. You need to have 4 lighting circuits as per plan, not necessarily per NEC as you can use 20 amp and have less. Then you mustm have all the other required circuits required by code in addition to the notes on the plan.
I don't understand what the issue is here.
 
Sierrasparky said:
If the affected sqft area is 2000sqft. You need to have 4 lighting circuits as per plan, not necessarily per NEC as you can use 20 amp and have less. Then you mustm have all the other required circuits required by code in addition to the notes on the plan.
I don't understand what the issue is here.
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The issue is cost, as it always is with a home owner. If there is switched receptacles in every room, can i tap off of that switch to put lights in the ceiling and not have to run 3 new lighting circuits because the house is 1200 sq ft. I know there are certain requirements for new construction and remodel, i just would like someone to explain the sections that i quoted out of the NEC so that i can get some clarity.
 
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caddyking951 said:
The issue is cost, as it always is with a home owner. If there is switched receptacles in every room, can i tap off of that switch to put lights in the ceiling and not have to run 3 new lighting circuits because the house is 1200 sq ft. I know there are certain requirements for new construction and remodel, i just would like someone to explain the sections that i quoted out of the NEC so that i can get some clarity.
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You can wire the place any which way you want.
The issue you ask is if the 500 rule is in the NEC. It is not as per se. The notes on the prints are dictating what you must do. If you want to do something different as I said earlier offer some value engineering as long as it is per code.

You appear to be from CA. CA does not use the NEC but a code made from the NEC called the CA electrical code. We in Kalifornia are on the 2010 CAEC based on the 2008 NEC. Jan 2014 we will be on the CAEC 2014 based on the 2011 NEC.


I am glad I would never be in a position to bid against you, as I could not compete against your logic. One day you are going to have a customer that adds up breakers and circuits and see you shorted them and you will be off the job and into the poor house in one failed swoop. The owner will not let you back to fix the problem. The owner will file with the CSLB and state that it cost thousands more to fix what you did than you would have ever made on the job. You will loose your license because you cannot pay and you will be on the street homeless.

Sorry for the rant and harshness but you got me at the wrong moment and I think you need to hear it from someone who's boss had it happen to them. I also know several others that just don't want to learn. I warned them but did they listen. Nope.
 
Oh and I forgot which should have been the very first thing I said.:eek:

Welcome to the Forum. :thumbsup:
 
Sierrasparky said:
You can wire the place any which way you want.
The issue you ask is if the 500 rule is in the NEC. It is not as per se. The notes on the prints are dictating what you must do. If you want to do something different as I said earlier offer some value engineering as long as it is per code.

You appear to be from CA. CA does not use the NEC but a code made from the NEC called the CA electrical code. We in Kalifornia are on the 2010 CAEC based on the 2008 NEC. Jan 2014 we will be on the CAEC 2014 based on the 2011 NEC.


I am glad I would never be in a position to bid against you, as I could not compete against your logic. One day you are going to have a customer that adds up breakers and circuits and see you shorted them and you will be off the job and into the poor house in one failed swoop. The owner will not let you back to fix the problem. The owner will file with the CSLB and state that it cost thousands more to fix what you did than you would have ever made on the job. You will loose your license because you cannot pay and you will be on the street homeless.

Sorry for the rant and harshness but you got me at the wrong moment and I think you need to hear it from someone who's boss had it happen to them. I also know several others that just don't want to learn. I warned them but did they listen. Nope.
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Wow, I am sorry to hear that. All i wanted was some clarity on a section of the NEC and instead i got you on an off day belittling other people for whatever reason. I completely understand that not everyone fully understands the NEC, that is why I asked the question. The only stupid question is the question not asked, so if you do not have an intelligent answer, then I would suggest keeping your mouth shut. And if I didn't want to learn then i wouldn't be on this site. But i guess there will always be one bad apple in the bunch, I just didn't think i would find him on the first question i posted. And also the rest of the nation is about to adopt the 2014 NEC, i would rather be one step ahead then 2 steps behind.
 
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I said I was sorry for the rant.

Your profile claims you are a contractor. To me that means you have passed the exam and you should know how to calculate loads for a dwelling. If you are a electrician legally working you should also have this knowledge as you also would have taken and passed a exam as well as continuing education.
I can tell by the reply you missed everything I said because I ranted I said I was sorry.

Be it as it may. I said it poorly so you should take"all" of what I said and throw it in the trash.

I will try to do it better next time.
 
caddyking951 said:
I was given a set of prints for a residential remodel by a general contractor and in the electrical notes it states "Provide one light circuit for each 500 S.F. of livable area". But i cannot find it in the 2011 NEC anywhere. I am trying to save time in having to separate all the lights and receptacles onto separate circuits. We are just rehabbing the house and adding the appropriate arc fault, bath gfi, kitchen and laundry circuits. Please help. Thanks
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As has already been stated, there is no NEC rule for this. You might start by asking the GC or whoever drew up the prints if they meant separate/dedicated circuits for the lights. They may just want to make sure there is lighting outlets to cover the areas and may be ok with them coming off of receptacle circuits.
 
Little Bill said:
As has already been stated, there is no NEC rule for this. You might start by asking the GC or whoever drew up the prints if they meant separate/dedicated circuits for the lights. They may just want to make sure there is lighting outlets to cover the areas and may be ok with them coming off of receptacle circuits.
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Thank you for helping.
 
Did you already bid and win the job without seeing that the prints said they wanted a circuit for each 500 sq ft? If so, that's your mistake. You live, you learn to do better next time.

If not, just tell them how much it will cost to have that many circuits and how unnecessary it is to do so. They will appreciate you looking out for their wallet. Then suggest a better plan.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I said I was sorry for the rant.

Your profile claims you are a contractor. To me that means you have passed the exam and you should know how to calculate loads for a dwelling. If you are a electrician legally working you should also have this knowledge as you also would have taken and passed a exam as well as continuing education.
I can tell by the reply you missed everything I said because I ranted I said I was sorry.

Be it as it may. I said it poorly so you should take"all" of what I said and throw it in the trash.

I will try to do it better next time.
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Well, i accept your apology, and yes i am a contractor licensed and bonded. I started my business 2 1/2 years ago at the old of 30. I started when i was 18 right out of high school and I do not claim to know everything. I do everything myself which includes raising my 3 kids. I am competing against companies with full time estimators who do nothing but estimate. I am fair and stand behind my work 100%. I am trying to get that competitive edge by trying to learn as much as i can. There are too many companies underbidding because they pay their electricians crap wages. I pay relatively well and treat all my workers with respect. But owners would rather pay less for a cheaper quality.
 
jaylectricity said:
Did you already bid and win the job without seeing that the prints said they wanted a circuit for each 500 sq ft? If so, that's your mistake. You live, you learn to do better next time.

If not, just tell them how much it will cost to have that many circuits and how unnecessary it is to do so. They will appreciate you looking out for their wallet. Then suggest a better plan.
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I bid off of architecturals only because thats all they had. they know there will be change orders but i am trying to make it as painless as possible by not doing a bunch of unnecessary work. All they said was rehab the house and bring it up to code.
 
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