Lighting Control

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
There was no clear information as to what type of system is this but I have a question. As far as I know the occ sensor gets power from a power pack, 120v in a 24v out to the occ sensor. Why would there be 4c/18 going back to the relay panel? THe guy @ Lutron say 2 #18 would go to an i/o mdule that sits on a link for the keypads etc. I am a little confused. I thought a occupancy sensor should only get the 24v via the power pack.

There whwere different manufacturers specified other than Lutron so this could work another way.

Also why woud there be a relay panel with time clock as shown to control occ sensors. Isn't this contradictory?
 

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There was no clear information as to what type of system is this but I have a question. As far as I know the occ sensor gets power from a power pack, 120v in a 24v out to the occ sensor. Why would there be 4c/18 going back to the relay panel? THe guy @ Lutron say 2 #18 would go to an i/o mdule that sits on a link for the keypads etc. I am a little confused. I thought a occupancy sensor should only get the 24v via the power pack.
There are only about 3,827 different types of occupancy sensors, light sensors etc.

Also why woud there be a relay panel with time clock as shown to control occ sensors.
The time clock does not control the occ sensors, forget the occ sensors you have in your mind.


  • Think of the relay panel as a brain
  • Think of the phone overrides, photo sensors, occ sensors, manual overrides, etc. as it's senses. (inputs)
  • Think of the relays as it's hands, they are what make things happen. (outputs)

So in this set up the brain looks at all the inputs, compares it to the software instructions and changes the states of the relays based on the states of the inputs vs the instructions.

For instance, during normal business hours the occupancy sensors might turn on an entire area and during off hours the same occ sensor might just turn on half the lighting for the cleaning crew to see with.

Really with a set up like shown on the print there is almost no limit to the things you can do to save money, another example would be ignoring occupancy when the the photo sensor sees enough natural light coming in a window (Called Daylight Harvesting http://www.energy.ca.gov/2008publications/CEC-500-2008-067/CEC-500-2008-067-FS.PDF)

The occ sensors you are thinking of are much more basic, they have there place but more in retrofit work than new construction.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Like Bob said the number of scenarios is huge and with these systems you're only limited by your wallet. I worked on a Lutron system where each fixture had an addressable ballast, the system also had occupancy sensors, light sensors at the windows and electric shades all connected to the system. When there was a sufficient amount of natural light coming in the windows, the rows of fixtures nearest the windows were dimmed, if there was no one in the area the OS out the lights off completely. If it was hot outside with bright sunlight the shades would shut to keep the sunlight from heating the air conditioned space. Sounds like you need more information.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
you're only limited by your wallet.
So very true. :)

But it is getting so that even basic buildings have very sophisticated controls to comply with energy codes or the desire to appear green.


I worked on a Lutron system where each fixture had an addressable ballast,
I think we are going to see this type of technology increasing quickly. Almost limitless possibilities, it could even report out lamps.

We have been working with a start up company http://www.outsmartinc.com/ who is making 'addressable CTs' for power monitoring. They communicate via a common data bus back to a head unit that can transmit the data over the power conductors to the actual place you read the info. (Each SDS must have it's own head unit)
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
So very true. :)

But it is getting so that even basic buildings have very sophisticated controls to comply with energy codes or the desire to appear green.




I think we are going to see this type of technology increasing quickly. Almost limitless possibilities, it could even report out lamps.

We have been working with a start up company http://www.outsmartinc.com/ who is making 'addressable CTs' for power monitoring. They communicate via a common data bus back to a head unit that can transmit the data over the power conductors to the actual place you read the info. (Each SDS must have it's own head unit)
Power line carrier technology has been around a long time, hopefully they have improved it. The orange box used this to control the Hid's near the skylights for daylight harvesting. Never worked very well if at all. I don't know of any of their stores that it is still connected. Veris has been making addressable ct's for quite a while using modbus communications.
 

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
There are only about 3,827 different types of occupancy sensors, light sensors etc.



The time clock does not control the occ sensors, forget the occ sensors you have in your mind.


  • Think of the relay panel as a brain
  • Think of the phone overrides, photo sensors, occ sensors, manual overrides, etc. as it's senses. (inputs)
  • Think of the relays as it's hands, they are what make things happen. (outputs)

So in this set up the brain looks at all the inputs, compares it to the software instructions and changes the states of the relays based on the states of the inputs vs the instructions.

For instance, during normal business hours the occupancy sensors might turn on an entire area and during off hours the same occ sensor might just turn on half the lighting for the cleaning crew to see with.

Really with a set up like shown on the print there is almost no limit to the things you can do to save money, another example would be ignoring occupancy when the the photo sensor sees enough natural light coming in a window (Called Daylight Harvesting http://www.energy.ca.gov/2008publications/CEC-500-2008-067/CEC-500-2008-067-FS.PDF)

The occ sensors you are thinking of are much more basic, they have there place but more in retrofit work than new construction.

Don't the occ sensors only work based on occupancy or non occupancy. What you describe is they are working on time clock. Lighting circuits are tied into a relay panel which work from the time clock and turns on/off the lighting..no?
 

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Like Bob said the number of scenarios is huge and with these systems you're only limited by your wallet. I worked on a Lutron system where each fixture had an addressable ballast, the system also had occupancy sensors, light sensors at the windows and electric shades all connected to the system. When there was a sufficient amount of natural light coming in the windows, the rows of fixtures nearest the windows were dimmed, if there was no one in the area the OS out the lights off completely. If it was hot outside with bright sunlight the shades would shut to keep the sunlight from heating the air conditioned space. Sounds like you need more information.
Wow that's cool. I guess what I am asking is why would OS ever tie in or work with a relay panel? I thought all OS were only given 24v power from a power pack and had nothing to do with a relay panel. THanks
 

jumper

Senior Member
Don't the occ sensors only work based on occupancy or non occupancy. What you describe is they are working on time clock. Lighting circuits are tied into a relay panel which work from the time clock and turns on/off the lighting..no?
The panel that that controls the relays has a electronic module, which is the brain that Iwire talks about. The time clock is not a physical thing, but rather a schedule of times, days, and events that control everything. It says what times that which inputs get to do to which circuits on what days and for how long.

The occupancy sensor is told what to do when as Iwire stated.

I have not installed or worked on one, but I was given programming control of a Lutron Softswitch 128 system of a 80,000 sq. ft. 4 story and it was one sweet system.

http://asia.lutron.com/grafikeye/specs/softswitch128_120.pdf

http://www.lutroninstaller.com/assets/kbitems/Lutron Softswitch 128 Setup.pdf
 

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
The panel that that controls the relays has a electronic module, which is the brain that Iwire talks about. The time clock is not a physical thing, but rather a schedule of times, days, and events that control everything. It says what times that which inputs get to do to which circuits on what days and for how long.

The occupancy sensor is told what to do when as Iwire stated.

I have not installed or worked on one, but I was given programming control of a Lutron Softswitch 128 system of a 80,000 sq. ft. 4 story and it was one sweet system.

http://asia.lutron.com/grafikeye/specs/softswitch128_120.pdf

http://www.lutroninstaller.com/assets/kbitems/Lutron Softswitch 128 Setup.pdf
Thanks Jumper..great link. So it looks like occupancy sensors NEVER get tied into a relay panel, correct. They only work bases on sensing occupany(or not) in a room. Has nothing to do with a relay panel. But actually the pic I attached says "occupancy sensor override. I am confused(suprised) how an OS ties in or has anything to do with a realy panel. Thanks.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Wait till you get into a GE smart 2000 system with addressable breakers with panels that are on a 485 Mod-buss to control all the lighting loads and or other loads through out a very large movie theater complex, I do maintenance work for some Goodrich theaters here in our area and they all have this system, the original installers didn't set up the local management with the program to do there own changes to times or other settings, and I had to do my own self crash course and get and install all the hardware and software to network all these panels together then put them on a IP network so it could be controlled from a central office location for them, and getting help from GE was like asking the military for some very top secret info on a weapon system. why I do not care for GE, the nice thing is with addressable breakers you don't need many if any control contactors or relays as you would with other lighting PLC systems, but getting the software from GE was just ridicules well until Goodrich got involve, they didn't tell me how they got it but I would suspect it had something to do with how many theaters they have plan to build across America if GE still want to be the product they use, before this they had to hire a GE person to come out with a lap top and plug in to each panel to do something as simple as change a time setting and it was ridicules expensive.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Thanks Jumper..great link. So it looks like occupancy sensors NEVER get tied into a relay panel, correct. They only work bases on sensing occupany(or not) in a room. Has nothing to do with a relay panel. But actually the pic I attached says "occupancy sensor override. I am confused(suprised) how an OS ties in or has anything to do with a realy panel. Thanks.
The Lutron Quantum Total Light Management system is full of bells and whistles for those who are looking for energy savings and some LEED compliance. Here's an article on a project I was involved with a few years ago.

http://www.lutron.com/Residential-Commercial-Solutions/SolApp/Corporate/OpenOffice/NYTimes/Pages/NYTimes.aspx
 

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Can anyone answer this ?? Thanks

So it looks like occupancy sensors NEVER get tied into a relay panel, correct. They only work bases on sensing occupany(or not) in a room. Has nothing to do with a relay panel. But actually the pic I attached says "occupancy sensor override. I am confused(suprised) how an OS ties in or has anything to do with a realy panel. Thanks
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Can anyone answer this ?? Thanks

So it looks like occupancy sensors NEVER get tied into a relay panel, correct. They only work bases on sensing occupancy(or not) in a room. Has nothing to do with a relay panel. But actually the pic I attached says "occupancy sensor override. I am confused(surprised) how an OS ties in or has anything to do with a relay panel. Thanks
Occupancy detectors are just another form of control just like photo cells and or timers, how they are used and wired are up to those in charge with the design of the system, yes OS can be connected to lighting control contactors, relays, the same as photo cells and or timers.

Edited to add that an Occupancy sensor override is usually a switch that keeps the lights in an area on that over rides the OC, there is a requirement for this in the NEC if you are trying to bid off that image you posted it does not show the actual wiring as it is just a one line diagram, how each OC wires up along with the over ride switch's will depend upon the manufacture of the OC's, that diagram just says daisy chained which in most cases would lead someone to believe they are wired in series but that would be false as they would or should be in parallel?

You might want to talk to who you have that will be laying out this job and he should beable to point you in how to price it out.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Can anyone answer this ?? Thanks
I did answer it, you just fail to understand

So it looks like occupancy sensors NEVER get tied into a relay panel, correct. They only work bases on sensing occupany(or not) in a room. Has nothing to do with a relay panel. But actually the pic I attached says "occupancy sensor override. I am confused(suprised) how an OS ties in or has anything to do with a realy panel. Thanks
Wrong!

The occ sensors tie into the relay panel to tell the brain in the relay panel if an area is occupied.

The override buttons also tie into the relay panel to tell the brain when an override is needed

To me the print is very clear, I deal with these systems all the time.
 

horsegoer

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I did answer it, you just fail to understand



Wrong!

The occ sensors tie into the relay panel to tell the brain in the relay panel if an area is occupied.

The override buttons also tie into the relay panel to tell the brain when an override is needed

To me the print is very clear, I deal with these systems all the time.
I understand what you said I just thought the occ sensor did not need the relay panel to have to detect occupancy and turn on/off the lights. Actually the drawing shows a OS symbol but then if you read it it calls for a OS OVERRIDE. Hmmm.

Thanks,
 

Strathead

Senior Member
I understand what you said I just thought the occ sensor did not need the relay panel to have to detect occupancy and turn on/off the lights. Actually the drawing shows a OS symbol but then if you read it it calls for a OS OVERRIDE. Hmmm.

Thanks,
But you started out with an oversimplification. The key word is "sensor" not "occupancy". Have you ever seen an exterior floodlight that senses motion, but also only comes on at night? Where is the 24V in this scenario? There are 2 sensing functions in the controller and a relay. Sensing light, and "sensing" movement. There are 120V occupancy sensors, and they could make 12 volt occupancy sensors if you needed them.

You are hung up on one application of one portion of the technology. Occupancy sensors have been designed to reduce energy usage in this case on lighting. A properly designed energy reduction system has to take many factors in to consideration. For example (but not all inclusive) daylight, frequency of occupancy, duration of occupancy, type of occupancy, type of movement of occupants, times of day or night etc. Then various controls are used to create the optimal, energy savings vs. acceptable cost.

So that said, a simple scenario where tying the OCC's to the "brain" instead of having them independently function. The professor turns on the projector. The lights go out, the screen drops, the DVR turns on, the amplifier turns on, and the movie starts, and the OCC's are overridden to prevent them from coming on during the movie. But if a fire alarm goes off, the lights come on immediately. Or how about a lighting control that turns all the lights off at 6:00, but the boss works late sometimes and doesn't want to exit in the dark. He has an OCC put in his office that "tells" the panel to keep lights on if he is still there. Just two of so many possibilities.

Basically, you are very wrong in your assumption that OCC's work indepent from a lighting control panel.
 
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