Lightning Damage to VFD's

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dave121

Member
We install a lot of VFD's out doors. On these new installations we install new gr. Electrodes, tie them to well casings, and to the power co. Neutral at the service. The vfd inclosure is also connected to this, along with equipment gr. To everything. In some of these installations we still get some lightning damage.
Any suggestions?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
What are the VFD's installed in?

If you are using non-metallic cabinets then this is one point that could be addressed, along with what type of wiring method are you using PVC or RMC, look into flat braided wire instead of regular round wire for your GEC conductors, and keep any GEC's away from the motor and control wiring, the idea is to not invite the lightning to the inside of your control cabinets by doing all your GEC bonding outside of it, and only having one bond point (single point bonding) if you have multiple ground rods, don't bond one to one side of the cabinet then bond another to the other side as this invite the lightning current to travel across the cabinet, bond from ground rod to ground rod or take them to the single point bond, which should be a copper plate drilled and tapped, some supply houses have them or can get them, burndy makes a few styles then take it to the single point bonding point also bring your well bond to this single point.

Without knowing much about the system you have, it's hard to offer much else but one other point is to avoid as much as possible in routing wiring in loops, like if your motor leads take one path to the well then you have control wiring going to another point lets say point 1 try to avoid running another set of conductors from point 1 to the well as this will create a loop that a near field lightning event can induce current into, try to run conductors more like spider legs where you run to one point then out to the different points, PVC even buried underground can have a lightning EMP induced into it, so the more you put into a metallic raceway the less lightning can affect it. also use some TVSS devices where possible, you can get MOV's rated at almost any voltage but care should be taken when using them on very low current circuits such as PID's and other I/O's as they can load down the circuit and cause problems, but installing a good surge protectors on the supply and any control power supply's or transformers can limit some of the surges that come into the system from the utility or internally generated from inductive sources like relay coils, solenoids and such.

Just remember lightning is a very high energy event, it has a very high current and voltage, and is also a high frequency event that many do not understand that can induce current into wiring just like a transformer induces current from the primary windings to the secondary windings, also just like a transformer this induced current is no longer seeking a path to Earth, all its trying to do is to complete a circuit this is why you try to not form loops in your wiring, as when you only have one pathway current can not flow as it will treat all the conductors in a pathway as only one conductor and we know current can't flow if there is no other path, here is some good examples of loops that is common to receive damage in a near field strike ( A lightning strike to a tree some where about 20' to 100' from the building or equipment) a phone that is plugged in to a receptacle outlet that also has a phone wire connected to it, you have one path through the 120 volt circuit from the panel run in one path through the attic, then the phone cable run in another path which the phone company also bonds at the service, this creates the loop, and is almost impossible to avoid. others is networks, TV's with cable to them, and even entertainment systems that might have a sub woofer located across the room plugged into an outlet fed from a different circuit, all these have one or more different paths through a home that come together at both ends forming a loop, and since this induced current treats all the conductors in a cable as one conductor, TVSS devices can do little to stop this kind of damage which will happen to the weaker electronics that are between or in series with this loop.

Damage can be minimized but never totally eliminated, so even with all the protection you can muster you can still get damage.

Class dismissed:D
 
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dave121

Member
All good information. Thanks. We were going to try MOV's. All the enclosures are metal and bonded with equipment grounds, which also goes to the motors. All the conduit we use is PVC. At this time the inspectors require the GEC to tie to the well casing. I'll look closer at the single point bonding. Just a thought, part of these installations include an irrigation system ( huge lightning attractor ) which is bonded to the new installation. The old equipment's grounding electrode system may not get updated. Just wondering if the lightning is seeking the new stuff because it may be a better path to earth?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
As others have addressed to some degree, your problem is not likely a grounding issue but rather voltage imposed on the supply conductors. Surge supression equipment can help, if you are getting direct hits anything can be destroyed
 
All good information. Thanks. We were going to try MOV's. All the enclosures are metal and bonded with equipment grounds, which also goes to the motors. All the conduit we use is PVC. At this time the inspectors require the GEC to tie to the well casing. I'll look closer at the single point bonding. Just a thought, part of these installations include an irrigation system ( huge lightning attractor ) which is bonded to the new installation. The old equipment's grounding electrode system may not get updated. Just wondering if the lightning is seeking the new stuff because it may be a better path to earth?

Since this is a irrigation system you will have lightning(induced) surges potenitally coming from both the line and load side. (The same could be said for well pumps.)

So to be prudent, you'd install surge arrestors on both line and load side. Since you're installing a lot of these, you may want to think about economics. Not all your drives get destroyed, but only a small(?) number of those. It may be that adding all those lightning arrestors would pay for replacement times over.

Please also remember that a lightning arrestor will only limit up to a certain magnitude of the strike and there will be, albeit rarely, occasion when the surge arrestors themselves are destroyed.(That is one reason why thge APC, etc. manufacturers offer a damage reward of $200K or even higher should your PC surge protector fail to 'protect'.)
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Since this is a irrigation system you will have lightning(induced) surges potentially coming from both the line and load side. (The same could be said for well pumps.)

So to be prudent, you'd install surge arrestors on both line and load side. Since you're installing a lot of these, you may want to think about economics. Not all your drives get destroyed, but only a small(?) number of those. It may be that adding all those lightning arrestors would pay for replacement times over.

Please also remember that a lightning arrestor will only limit up to a certain magnitude of the strike and there will be, albeit rarely, occasion when the surge arrestors themselves are destroyed.(That is one reason why thge APC, etc. manufacturers offer a damage reward of $200K or even higher should your PC surge protector fail to 'protect'.)

(about the above in red)

Do you think there would be no problem on the output of the drive? knowing that there can be some very high voltage spikes on the output of a VFD I wouldn't think a MOV would last very long before faulting?

To the OP'er how far are these pumps from their VFD's. are the one being damaged have longer runs then the ones that are not?
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
(about the above in red)

Do you think there would be no problem on the output of the drive? knowing that there can be some very high voltage spikes on the output of a VFD I wouldn't think a MOV would last very long before faulting?

I had similar thoughts hence my question. In any case, if you cook at the output stage of a VFD it is usually six IGBTs each with an inverse diode fed from a DC link capacitor. The diodes, together with the capacitor would be a fairly effective sink for any surges between the load side conductors. To ground might be a different matter.
It would be interesting to know the nature of the failures being experienced.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
(about the above in red)

Do you think there would be no problem on the output of the drive? knowing that there can be some very high voltage spikes on the output of a VFD I wouldn't think a MOV would last very long before faulting?

To the OP'er how far are these pumps from their VFD's. are the one being damaged have longer runs then the ones that are not?

From my experiences the voltage spikes on a long run on the output side kill the motors not the drive.
 
(about the above in red)

Do you think there would be no problem on the output of the drive? knowing that there can be some very high voltage spikes on the output of a VFD I wouldn't think a MOV would last very long before faulting?

To the OP'er how far are these pumps from their VFD's. are the one being damaged have longer runs then the ones that are not?

Of course the clipping voltage of the selected device must be higher than the spikes generated, probly in the enighborhood of 2kV. That's called engineering.....:lol:
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
From my experiences the voltage spikes on a long run on the output side kill the motors not the drive.
The spikes resulting from the fast switching of the IGBTs in the inverter results in voltage spikes at the motor, not at the drive.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The spikes resulting from the fast switching of the IGBTs in the inverter results in voltage spikes at the motor, not at the drive.

That is why I said what I did, I didn't think there was much point in a surge arrestor on the output side of the drive because of voltage spikes - it is a problem for the motor not the drive.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
That is why I said what I did, I didn't think there was much point in a surge arrestor on the output side of the drive because of voltage spikes
For the spikes or over voltages between phases resulting from the normal switching operation of the IGBTs, I agree.
For spikes between the output conductors and ground caused by lightning, it might be a different matter. But it's not a problem I've had to deal with. Lightning is neither as common nor as severe here (UK) as I've seen elsewhere in the world.
 

dave121

Member
As a matter of interest, where do you plan to put the MOVs? I mean electrically. I've never had much success with them.

We would put them on the control circuits that operate relay coils from the irrigation, that start the drives. We have seen where lightning has jumped from the coil to the points of the relay which is direct circuit to the drive.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The motor's are always within 15' of the VFD.

Even more reason to be less concerned with surges coming from the output terminals, I think you probably addresses the best possibility of the source when you mentioned protecting the control circuits. Even the drive input terminals will likely take a certain amount of surge but the controls probably not.
 
That is why I said what I did, I didn't think there was much point in a surge arrestor on the output side of the drive because of voltage spikes - it is a problem for the motor not the drive.

Under locked rotor conditions the reflected wave does return to the drive, so to be absolutely prudent and in case the LP is installed at the motor end, it is prudent to size it to the max expected switching spike. What I would be mnore concerned about is what the drive will 'think' of the impedance profile with the added devices and weather it will be able to properly characterize the circuit.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Under locked rotor conditions the reflected wave does return to the drive, so to be absolutely prudent and in case the LP is installed at the motor end, it is prudent to size it to the max expected switching spike. What I would be mnore concerned about is what the drive will 'think' of the impedance profile with the added devices and weather it will be able to properly characterize the circuit.

How often is full voltage and frequency applied during locked rotor conditions? At startup the voltage and frequency are usually ramping up. If motor should encounter a condition that would normally stall the motor while running, there is a good chance the drive overload protection is going to shut it down before it actually becomes stalled. Just my thoughts on this.
 
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