Lights staying on

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Hello - so I replaced some switches at a house a couple of days ago on the main floor. The owner called and said that the lights in two of the bedrooms would not go off completely when the switch was in the off position. He also said that two of the switches I replaced were on the same circuit as those lights. The house was built in the 40s , the bedroom lights are LED lights , and they are toggle switches. Any thoughts on what I should check ? Thank you
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
With a house built in the 1940s I would check to see if it's the hot being switched and not the neutral.

I guess the toggle switches could be bad. I got some bad one's once but they wouldn't close.

Could be the lights are getting power that's not going through the switch leg.

I guess the first thing I would do is remove the switch to simulate and open condition and see what happens.

Have fun.
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Are these illuminated switches or have any small status light on them? If so they could be drawing a very small current even when the switch is "off".
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190905-2449 EDT

John Wayne:

Pull a switch out.

Verify that hot is being switched. I will assume it is.

With switch off measure voltage from switch output to EGC or neutral using a high impedance DVM. Should be near zero but clearly is not. This voltage is essentially accross the LED.

Put a 15 W incandescent from switch output to neutral. Can not say whether EGC or neutral is better to use. Voltage should go close to zero. Record this voltage. Then apply an adjustable voltage source to the same 15 W bulb alone and adjust for the same voltage. Measure the current. This is the leakage current in your circuit. From this you can estimate the leakage impedance. The magnitude will determine what you look for as the leakage source. I have not played to see how practical the method is.

.
 

S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Are these illuminated switches or have any small status light on them? If so they could be drawing a very small current even when the switch is "off".

Exactly what I was thinking.

I've often see a lighted switch or motion pass just enough current to make an led lamp dimly glow.

Change led lamp or switch type.
 

S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
The toggle switches are from the 40s and are not lighted

Ok. Then I'd pull the switch leg wire off switch and if glow goes away, you know it's the switch.
If not, pull lights or whatever the load is, and megger switch leg wire to hot circuits in area to help find what is leaking current into the circuit. Perhaps cat wisker in a box or bad insulation somewhere.

I wouldn't rely much on voltage readings as phantom voltages due to capacitive coupling will lead you on a wild goose chase.

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190906-1045

S'mise:

The reason to measure the voltage across the load, presumably one low wattage LED, with a high impedance meter, 10 megohm or higher, is to know the approximate voltage across the bulb to cause the glow. This is background knowledge.

Romex cable capacitance is possibly around 20 pfd per foot. That is between the two current carrying conductors in free space ignoring the EGC. With a 100 ft cable that would be 0.002 ufd, or about 1.3 megohms at 60 Hz. 1.3 megs at 120 V = 0.1 milliampere. But it is unlikely that a 120 V energized hot wire is real close to the switch Romex. Thus, less capacitance from some external energized hot wire. Further the Romex cable from the switch to the LED is likely to have two grounded conductors (neutral and EGC) connected back to the main panel neutral and ground bus bars, and we have the switched hot wire, with no power applied, having its cable capacitance to both the grounded neutral and the EGC as a shunt to ground which parallels the LED. Thus, the shunt impedance across the LED and including the LED is relatively low compared to likely stray capacitance from somewhere else. A voltage measurement will provide some idea of the relative relationship.

We need some idea of the leakage current magnitude.

My suggestion of a 15 W bulb as a current shunt to measure leakage current was to provide a convenient resistor to use for the measurement. Unfortunately it changes resistance with applied voltage. Thus, the indirect means to determine leakage current.

At room temperature and no applied voltage a 15 W bulb would be around 70 ohms, prediction from 75 W below. Measured with my Fluke 27 directly across the 15 W bulb I read a stablized 85 ohms, 0.04 V for the 15 W bulb. This reading might be slightly high from self heating, or it could be bulb variance. A 25 W read 46.6 ohms at 0.02 V, and a 75 W read 13.5 at 0.006 V. My recollection is that a 100 W read about 10 ohms. The 25, 75, 100 values correlate. I would have to look at other 15 W units or run a lower voltage test on the existing blulb to determine if a heating effect is present. My previous post means of using the 15 W bulb to measure leakage current cancels the heating effect by doing the current measurement at the same voltage as when in series with the LED bulb.

On a random 9 W 120 V LED bulb it required 0.13 mfd series capacitance from 120 V to cause glow. 0.12 mfd no glow. 0.13 mfd is about 20 k ohms at 60 Hz. 20 k at 120 V is about 6 mA. This is a large amount of capacitance from cables in a home.

A 100 ohm carbon composition resistor would be better for a current measuring shunt. 10 mA at 100 ohms is 1 V. The reason to use an external shunt and a voltage measurement instead of directly measuring current is to protect your meter.

.

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
190907-0630 EDT

In my post #10 the Bulb used was a CREE 9 W. This morning it takes 0.17 mfd to get a glow, and voltage across bulb at this minimum point is about 8 to 9 V on an RMS meter. Have not looked at the waveform.

This morning I also tested a FEIT 9 W bulb. This one glows down to 0.02 mfd and a voltage about 95 V across bulb with the series capacitor. Does not glow at 0.01 mfd.

Without looking at the waveform and doing other tests I judge that the FEIT needs about 0.2 mA at 95 V to glow.

Clearly the circuits in the CREE and FEIT are grossly different. I should point out that the CREE has very good dimming characteristics with both phase shift and sine wave voltage dimming.

What is the voltage drop across the bulb in the 1st post would be informative. Also knowing leakage current with a low resistance (relative) current shunt is needed.

I suggest trying a CREE bulb and see if there is any glow with the switch off.

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S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
gar, theres merit to what you say, but it's not a practical solution imh (and respectful) opinion.

Voltage can be measured but values can be misleading.

Its a simple matter of ringing out wires and figuring out how current is getting through to the light.

A megger or a decent meter capable of measuring resistance (Meg range) can quickly isolate where the problem is. Just have to shut off circuits to do so.

I don't see it making a difference wither its a fraction of a ma or 300ma of leakage.
​​​​​​If you have near infinite resistance, you will have no current flow.
 
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