limitations to # of receptacles?

[George Stolz]

I was looking for something else, and came across this gem in the 2008 ROP:

BROWN, L.: If there is a problem in the field with the overcurrent device tripping due to the simultaneous use of the bathroom receptacles, especially with the larger homes, the home builders would address the situation as they want their customers to be happy with their new home. In addition, this is no different than all of the bedroom receptacles being used at the same time. There is no limit as to the number of receptacles on a residential general lighting branch circuit.

It was in response to proposal 2-102 of the 2008 ROP.

 

[tallgirl]

I was looking for something else, and came across this gem in the 2008 ROP:

BROWN, L.: If there is a problem in the field with the overcurrent device tripping due to the simultaneous use of the bathroom receptacles, especially with the larger homes, the home builders would address the situation as they want their customers to be happy with their new home. In addition, this is no different than all of the bedroom receptacles being used at the same time. There is no limit as to the number of receptacles on a residential general lighting branch circuit.

It was in response to proposal 2-102 of the 2008 ROP.

While I think most of us agree with that in a strictly literal sense (see comments about an entire wall made up of receptacles ...), the comments by myself and Bob (and our apparent agreement is certainly proof of impending world peace ...) shouldn't be ignored.

What I don't get is how ALL of the bathrooms, regardless of number and/or size, can be put on a single 20A circuit. A house with four or five bathrooms, all large enough to house a family of four, can put all four or five of them on a single 20A circuit and be compliant.

 

[celtic]

What I don't get is how ALL of the bathrooms, regardless of number and/or size, can be put on a single 20A circuit. A house with four or five bathrooms, all large enough to house a family of four, can put all four or five of them on a single 20A circuit and be compliant.

The reason "WHY?" is the load is unknown. The load can be assumed to be a blow dryer, curing iron, electric razor, etc. But this is only a guess ~ no one knows except for the end user/s.

In a house that has 4 - 5 bathrooms, it would possibly cost less to have each bathroom on it's own 20A circuit (lighting included) ~ but that is a design choice.

 

[charlie b]

A house with four or five bathrooms, all large enough to house a family of four, can put all four or five of them on a single 20A circuit and be compliant.

Because the NEC does not care if the family is happy with the installation. See 90.1(B). All "compliant" gets you is "safe." Efficiency, convenience, and adequacy are beyond the scope of the NEC.

 

[dnem]

A house with four or five bathrooms, all large enough to house a family of four, can put all four or five of them on a single 20A circuit and be compliant.

Because the NEC does not care if the family is happy with the installation. See 90.1(B). All "compliant" gets you is "safe." Efficiency, convenience, and adequacy are beyond the scope of the NEC.

Exactly how is it unsafe to put general purpose plug loads on the same circuit as bathroom plug loads ?

BROWN, L.: If there is a problem in the field with the overcurrent device tripping due to the simultaneous use of the bathroom receptacles, especially with the larger homes, the home builders would address the situation as they want their customers to be happy with their new home. In addition, this is no different than all of the bedroom receptacles being used at the same time. There is no limit as to the number of receptacles on a residential general lighting branch circuit.

If drawing more than 20a from multiple bathroom plugs is no safety issue, it just trips the breaker and should be handled by the builder, who wants ?their customers to be happy?, then why should the code design them to be separated from general purpose loads ?

Because if it's not unsafe, then the code panel has added a design spec into the code which is the reason they use to throw one proposal after another into the circular file.

David

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Its tricks like this that allow some EC to underbid others.They will not have happy owners but they do not care.Perhaps that my weakness as i cant wire garbage.I dont want customers saying i cheated them.I seen one company i was employed by to not only use 1 circuit for the bathrooms but because the maids unit was the first she got the gfci receptacle.One can only guess how that worked out in a 5 bath house.

 

[celtic]

Its tricks like this that allow some EC to underbid others.

How is compling with code a "trick"?
If the print/specs do not address anything over MINIMUM, why would you just do it w/o compensation?

Say the prints are code minimum...
EC #1 bids the job "per print".
You submit a bid with your preferred methods.
Who will be lower (at this point) and probably get the job?

I bid "per print" because that is what the customer is asking for...when I have successfully landed the job, I will offer "above" minimum/print. I've lost too many jobs bidding what I want to put into it.

 

[LarryFine]

I do have a thought or few about bath-receptacle rules:

The kitchen-receptacle circuit theory: they don't want a malfunctioning (and possibly hot) appliance blacking out lighting.

One entire bathroom theory: imagine someone in another bathroom resetting your circuit just as the hair dryer slips into the sink.

The number per circuit is a design issue. After all, what's the max number of receptacles allowed on a kitchen S/A circuit?

The end-user would complain (and loudly) long before we would ever approach any code limitations. "No coffee and toast?!"

 

[M. D.]

I bid "per print" because that is what the customer is asking for...when I have successfully landed the job, I will offer "above" minimum/print. I've lost too many jobs bidding what I want to put into it.

Good point.

I'm not sure how many bathroom receptacle outlets get used simultaneously , it is room we spend little time in ,generally.
I do a lot of service work I don't get calls for the 20 amp bathroom circuit tripping @ the breaker. I have had 3 in the last couple years , that I can remember , complaints of the breaker tripping and the receptacle is on a general lighting branch circuit.

There are millions of bathroom receptacle outlets installed on 15 amp general lighting branch circuits I'm not sure there is a huge problem with circuits tripping with these installations let alone on 20 amp circuits, at least it isn't showing up as work solicitations. I would want to see some sort of statistic relative to the "overload" issue before I would limit the number.

 

[dnem]

Its tricks like this that allow some EC to underbid others.

I don't think knowing code rules could be called "tricks"

 

[dnem]

One entire bathroom theory: imagine someone in another bathroom resetting your circuit just as the hair dryer slips into the sink.

That theory only works for the exception to 210.11(C)(3). . Since the basic rule in 210.11(C)(3) allows one bath plug GFCI loaded off a plug in a different bath, resetting in one bath GFCI plug with a hairdryer in the water in another bath is not a safety concern of the 2005NEC [+ apparently not a concern in the 2008NEC].

David

 

[dnem]

Good point.

I'm not sure how many bathroom receptacle outlets get used simultaneously , it is room we spend little time in ,generally.
I do a lot of service work I don't get calls for the 20 amp bathroom circuit tripping @ the breaker.

I would guess that simultaneous use is the rule not the exception. . Homes with more than 2 bathrooms are usually occupied by families and a large percentage of families have teenage girls. . When the family is getting ready to leave the house to go somewhere, there's almost always simultaneous use of bathroom plugs by the females of the house.

David

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would guess that simultaneous use is the rule not the exception.
David

That is why you have OCP on the circuit. You can't plan for everything. This is why I always have the master bath receptacles on their own 20 amp circuits. The kids bathrooms and guest rooms on another.

Even this doesn't assure the kids wont use two hair dryers at the same time. A few trips to the panel and they will learn.

 

[roger]

One entire bathroom theory: imagine someone in another bathroom resetting your circuit just as the hair dryer slips into the sink.

This could also be the case if using GFCI breakers.


Roger