Line Isolation Monitor - Normal and Emergency flavor

[lile001]

I'm planning on using a Line Isolation Monitor panel in an OR, (Cardiac cath lab actually) The way I read the code these LIMS are required. I'd also like to put both normal and emergency power.

Of course Square D makes a dual LIM panel that probably anticipates this purpose.

Now, I have three CATH labs side by side. Can I install two LIM panels, one emergency one normal, and serve three labs? Or is there some limit for distance of wiring (Impedance is specifically adressed in NFPA 99) or a grounding issue that will prevent me from using two LIMs for three suites? I might have to go 50 feet or more to get from one lab to another.

Each suite is required to have a LIM monitoring panel in plain sight. Do they make remote LIM monitors? Can you put three remote monitors on one LIM, for three suites?

Thanks!

 

[roger]

I'm planning on using a Line Isolation Monitor panel in an OR, (Cardiac cath lab actually) The way I read the code these LIMS are required. I'd also like to put both normal and emergency power.

Isolation Power Systems are optional per the NEC. They are required in certain areas such as NC. Both Normal and Critical branches are required in these rooms though.

Of course Square D makes a dual LIM panel that probably anticipates this purpose.

These dual panels are nice, we use alot of them

Now, I have three CATH labs side by side. Can I install two LIM panels, one emergency one normal, and serve three labs? Or is there some limit for distance of wiring (Impedance is specifically adressed in NFPA 99) or a grounding issue that will prevent me from using two LIMs for three suites? I might have to go 50 feet or more to get from one lab to another.

You will find that the combined leakage of numerous conductors will add up fast, SQ D will not commission a panel that has more than .0005 Amps of leakage in an idle state. Actually .0006 (200,000 ohms) is the cut off but SQ D uses .0005.

Each suite is required to have a LIM monitoring panel in plain sight. Do they make remote LIM monitors? Can you put three remote monitors on one LIM, for three suites?

Yes, they make remote Line Isolation Monitors and you can put as many as neccessary downstram of the panel, you will most likely need the ones with the milliammeter.


Roger

 

[steve66]

Check NFPA 99 13.4.1.2.6.5: An isolation transformer shall not serve more than one operating room except....

The exception is basically for Xray and HV equipment.

I'm not sure if your cath lab would be considered an operating room.


Edit: After rereading your post, you're not asking what I though you were. I'm not sure if you planed on having separate isoltion panels or not.

Steve

 

[lile001]

Check NFPA 99 13.4.1.2.6.5: An isolation transformer shall not serve more than one operating room except....

The exception is basically for Xray and HV equipment.

I'm not sure if your cath lab would be considered an operating room.


Edit: After rereading your post, you're not asking what I though you were. I'm not sure if you planed on having separate isoltion panels or not.

Steve

Thanks! That was the code section I needed. NFPA 99 is the code that requires LIMs in operating rooms, NEC just makes them optional. The thinking is, operating rooms can be wet locations, but you don't ant GFI's tripping circuits during an operation, so the isolation transformer makes a single fault to ground not dangerous.

These CATH labs are definitely operating rooms, according to the surgeons. Your Mileage May Vary at your institution, it depends on how the surgeons intend to use the space. So it looks like we must have a dual LIM panel in EACH operating room suite. YOW! No wonder my insurance bill is going up!

 

[roger]

Lile, NFPA 99 does not require Isolated Power Systems any more than the NEC does. The applicable sections of where they are permitted to be used are NFPA 99 4.3.2.2.9 and 4.3.2.2.10.

Roger

 

[lile001]

LIM Panels

LIM Panels

Correct, niether NFPA 99 nor NEC requires LIM panels, they are optional. In my case they are required by the facility. The facility has also determined that these labs will be surgery areas, and could be wet locations, thus the LIM panels are a good idea.



I do want to find a code reference that requires both normal and emergency power in this kind of area. NEC refers to "patient bed locations" as needing two flavors of power. I am not sure that a "patient bed location" is the same as a surgery room. Is there a code reference that anyone else can find that requires both normal and emergency power in a surgery suite? Or can someone present an argument of sublte sophistry that can make the case that this is a "patient bed location"?

 

[roger]

It's in the definitions.

Patient Bed Location. The location of an inpatient sleeping bed; or the bed or procedure table used in a critical patient care area.

Patient Care Area.

Critical Care Areas. Those special care units, intensive care units, coronary care units, angiography laboratories, cardiac catheterization laboratories, delivery rooms, operating rooms, and similar areas in which patients are intended to be subjected to invasive procedures and connected to line-operated, electromedical devices.

Roger

 

[dbuckley]

Its still not clear what your intention is for "two panels" and "three labs"; I would opine that each lab should have its LIM(s) serving it, as any other arrangement would be a nightmare for the staff should the alarm sound.

 

[roger]

Its still not clear what your intention is for "two panels" and "three labs"; I would opine that each lab should have its LIM(s) serving it, as any other arrangement would be a nightmare for the staff should the alarm sound.

I agree, if trying to use these panels for more than one room you would need to locate them in a sterile corridor common to all the rooms, remote LIM's and milliammeters for each branch would be needed within each room.

Roger

 

[steve66]

So it looks like we must have a dual LIM panel in EACH operating room suite. YOW! No wonder my insurance bill is going up!

You can say that again:smile:

I wish the code would be a little more definate on if isolation panels are required. Engineers usually don't know enough about the procedures preformed to decide if they are necessary. And trying to get anyone in the facility to make that call is usually a dead end.

It seems like one of those danged if you do, and danged if you don't things.

Steve