Listings on solar or PV equipment?

[fastline]

Curious of the hassles with AHJs on solar equipment? I've sort of made myself a test dummy for a solar water pump thingy that will require a VFD and hyrbid inverter. Really not to excited to pay 5x the price to get all UL gear for something that will be in a control cabinet, outdoors anyway. I get the reasoning but curious if you guys have got grace from AHJs on 'lesser' equipment?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't see the requirement in the code for listed PV equipment as applying to the VFD and the pump.

690.4(B) Equipment.
Electronic power converters, motor generators, PV modules, ac modules and ac module systems, dc combiners, PV rapid shutdown equipment (PVRSE), PV hazard control equipment (PVHCE), PV hazard control systems (PVHCS), dc circuit controllers, and charge controllers intended for use in PV systems shall be listed or be evaluated for the application and have a field label applied.

 

[jaggedben]

Who sells unlisted 'gear' in these categories that's worth buying? I think if you are using unlisted equipment that's likely to catch up with you on the backend one way or another. I'm somewhat doubtful your unlisted gear at 1/5th the price will last more than a 5th as long as listed gear. (And then if there's a fire or something...) IMO reputable people don't knowingly do this. At least, not if they are selling their services to others.

If you use listed panels, listed inverter, and listed VFD, I don't see why you should have to jump through any extra hoops with AHJs.

 

[fastline]

Who sells unlisted 'gear' in these categories that's worth buying? I think if you are using unlisted equipment that's likely to catch up with you on the backend one way or another. I'm somewhat doubtful your unlisted gear at 1/5th the price will last more than a 5th as long as listed gear. (And then if there's a fire or something...) IMO reputable people don't knowingly do this. At least, not if they are selling their services to others.

If you use listed panels, listed inverter, and listed VFD, I don't see why you should have to jump through any extra hoops with AHJs.

There are at least 2 inverter brands I am familiar with that are relabeled, listed, and sold here. Same rigs, and have even been combed by competent EEs to be legit. I don't think you can paint with such a broad brush to condemn all inverters that didn't pay the UL extortion fee. I've seen tons of this equipment in other parts of the USA, I guess where the AHJ doesn't follow the bible to the letter.

 

[jaggedben]

There are at least 2 inverter brands ...

Care to name them? Otherwise I think this is just hand waving. You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I feel that if a company can't pay for the UL testing then they are probably either cutting corners or not well finacialized enough that I trust any warranty on their product. You are also openly asking whether you can get away with a code violation on a forum essentially dedicated to discussing code compliance.

As far as your question and observation, for off-grid systems I'm not sure how enforcement would even catch people who do things without permits. Perhaps that's how people get away with it. For grid tied systems with net-metering you would never get away with it.

 

[fastline]

No, I'm certainly not trying to skirt code outright, but asking if equipment listing is a hot point for inspectors.

As for one example of inverters. Consider Sol-Ark, which is actually Deye. As I understand, the software was of course edited for Sol-Ark to ensure a lack of compatibility. Now someone could argue "they are made in the same factory but not the same", but under internal inspections, it would appear they are. I'm again, not advocating one way or another here other than I know America builds nothing, but they bring stuff in, throw a bunch of colorful marketing in, get a UL stamp, and 5x the price. Of course customer support/warranty is a consideration but I know Sol-Ark simply sucks with all of that.

 

[PWDickerson]

I don't know about other areas, but inspectors in WA state are certainly focused on making sure equipment is properly listed.

 

[pv_n00b]

I think we are trying to compare apples and oranges here. A grid-tied PV system has to have a UL-listed inverter. I can't think of an AHJ who would let an unlisted inverter slide on this and I think it would be a bad idea to start using unlisted inverters anyway. So not a problem with me.
On an outside off-grid solar water pump system, particularly a smaller one, I can maybe see a less ridged AHJ letting this slide if consulted on it.

 

[pv_n00b]

No, I'm certainly not trying to skirt code outright, but asking if equipment listing is a hot point for inspectors.

As for one example of inverters. Consider Sol-Ark, which is actually Deye. As I understand, the software was of course edited for Sol-Ark to ensure a lack of compatibility. Now someone could argue "they are made in the same factory but not the same", but under internal inspections, it would appear they are. I'm again, not advocating one way or another here other than I know America builds nothing, but they bring stuff in, throw a bunch of colorful marketing in, get a UL stamp, and 5x the price. Of course customer support/warranty is a consideration but I know Sol-Ark simply sucks with all of that.

Several companies sell the Deye inverters under their label around the world. But depending on local requirements the modifications can be more significant than just software changes. The stock Deye inverter will not connect to the 240/120V split phase system in the US because it is built for Europe and requires modification. There may be other modifications performed to make them comply with the UL 1741 Standard. Listing to that standard ensures that the inverter complies with safety standards in the US.

 

[jaggedben]

To my understanding, software/firmware is actually the critical layer for meeting a safety standard. Like, a skilled engineer could make the same hardware unit do lots of different things. Without the right software you don't have the same listing.

 

[ggunn]

On an outside off-grid solar water pump system, particularly a smaller one, I can maybe see a less ridged AHJ letting this slide if consulted on it.

Why would an AHJ care about a system like that? Why would they even want to know about it?

 

[jaggedben]

Why would an AHJ care about a system like that? Why would they even want to know about it?

I can definitely think of places in my state where an AHJ might want any electrical equipment in a high-fire-danger area to be permitted and code compliant. *How* they would know is a different question.

 

[fastline]

Several companies sell the Deye inverters under their label around the world. But depending on local requirements the modifications can be more significant than just software changes. The stock Deye inverter will not connect to the 240/120V split phase system in the US because it is built for Europe and requires modification. There may be other modifications performed to make them comply with the UL 1741 Standard. Listing to that standard ensures that the inverter complies with safety standards in the US.

Yeah, our intent here is obviously off-grid anyway so no apparent conflict regarding split phase requirements. I do know of some that have a serious flaw regarding Neutral and ground references. I think even Victron had to do some workarounds on that.

I am sort of wondering if an AHJ would honor say a European seal as proof of safe. I mean, we are not trying to step into unsafe gear, but I realize a large part of inverter issues have to do with the split phase and grid disconnection means.

Good point regarding fire matters, and one I take very seriously. Off-grid means rural, which means fire is a real danger. However, installing in a steel enclosure, running good gear, and designed right, I just can't see too much drama here. Matter of fact there are thousands of solar livestock pumps in fields in all states! Issue there is they are budget based and power limited. We want 3KW, VFD, etc. I work a lot with pumps and want to trial some stuff under close supervision.

 

[jaggedben]

The code doesn't specify the exact product standards or who does the testing other than a 'nationally recognized testing laboratory'. So for an off-grid inverter that doesn't need to meet any standard (such as anti-islanding) for compatibility with other equipment, accepting listing to a non-US standard, possibly by an international NRTL ... or not ... would be the AHJ's prerogative.

 

[pv_n00b]

I am sort of wondering if an AHJ would honor say a European seal as proof of safe. I mean, we are not trying to step into unsafe gear, but I realize a large part of inverter issues have to do with the split phase and grid disconnection means.

A key difference is that in Europe the products are self-certified by the manufacturer to the EU standards, whereas in the USA they are certified by a 3rd party NRTL. You have to really trust your manufacturer for the European system to carry any water.