WasGSOHM
Senior Member
- Location
- Montgomery County MD
- Occupation
- EE
And how to confirm or disprove this ideas, one at a time. The cows are getting thirsty. . .
In my experience the BarBarA will not freeze up if install correctly. That experience is over 15 years and down to -25F with the BarBarA drinker. No experience with other types.Some of those types will freeze if there isn’t enough water usage.
An equipotential bonding grid under the cows where they stand to drink tied into the water would mask the problem and allow the cows to drink.And how to confirm or disprove this ideas, one at a time. The cows are getting thirsty. . .
The first thing I would do is to inspect the service grounding to make sure it is adequate.And how to confirm or disprove this ideas, one at a time. The cows are getting thirsty. . .
I would hope the OP does at least some of these tests and tries some of these candidate solutions. It might stop the tail-chasing.Also, check for current on the GEC both with the main power on and with the main power off.
If the circuit was GFCI protected, would you let it go w/no EGC? I think I might, ... maybe.. It is only reason for this that needs to be explored IF simply leaving the EGC open is not considered an acceptable solution.
(It should not be acceptable because it will probably not allow a hard ground fault at the tank to trip a non-GFCI breaker).
Code wise it is a no no. Theory wise somewhat OK, might be better yet if an ungrounded source.If the circuit was GFCI protected, would you let it go w/no EGC? I think I might, ... maybe.
Larry changed my mind on that. GFCI doesn't work very well on an ungrounded source.Theory wise somewhat OK, might be better yet if an ungrounded source.
It should work for ungrounded loads. Unless they changed it, the toroid inside only knows leaving and returning currents.Larry changed my mind on that. GFCI doesn't work very well on an ungrounded source.
That's not what I meant. We were talking about ungrounded sources. For a GFCI to work properly, there needs to be a parallel path (the ground that is referenced to neutral in the grounded source) for stray current back to the source.It should work for ungrounded loads.
Larry changed my mind on that. GFCI doesn't work very well on an ungrounded source.
It works just fine. First ground fault does nothing but create a ground reference, it don't need to trip at this point as there is no stray current flowing. Should there be a second ground fault it will still result in current flowing outside the protected conductors and will result in voltage sensed by the CT in the GFCI and trip it.Larry changed my mind on that. GFCI doesn't work very well on an ungrounded source.
I had to draw this one out.That's not what I meant. We were talking about ungrounded sources. For a GFCI to work properly, there needs to be a parallel path (the ground that is referenced to neutral in the grounded source) for stray current back to the source.
You will have to draw that one up for me to agree with you. Since the first and second fault are from conductors that are from the GFCI, there is no outside of the protected conductor path. Having a grounded source allows detection of a fault of either hot or grounded conductor.It works just fine. First ground fault does nothing but create a ground reference, it don't need to trip at this point as there is no stray current flowing. Should there be a second ground fault it will still result in current flowing outside the protected conductors and will result in voltage sensed by the CT in the GFCI and trip it.
Hey Wayne, what's going on?A rancher has had issues with stock being shocked at the water tank. I was called to see what the fix was. There was 14.8 volts from the water tank to ground (with a new tank heater in the water). The stock would not drink. We drove a ground rod at the source (the shop) and that did not correct the issue. We then replaced an extension cord that was a 12 gauge cord with a 14 gauge cord and that dropped the voltage to near zero.
The rancher then purchased a new 12 gauge cord and plugged it in and the problem came back. He then put the smaller cord back in service and the voltage went back to zero. Up at the source ( a shop with a dirt floor) we tested a tub of water to ground with no extension cord to the tank heater. The voltage to ground at the shop is 14.8 volts from the water to the dirt floor. The service from the shop is an older fuse box and with a tester it shows a good ground at all the receptacles. The extension cord run from the source to the water tanks is about 75 feet.
I am at a loss other than to replace the fuse box at the shop, but it is grounded well and the extension cord gig really is baffling.
Ideas??
fault between "hot" and "neutral" won't trip the GFCI even on a grounded system. Current that isn't flowing back through the GFCI is what is needed to trip it. With ungrounded system there can't be ground fault current until there is a ground reference - which is what happens with the first fault.You will have to draw that one up for me to agree with you. Since the first and second fault are from conductors that are from the GFCI, there is no outside of the protected conductor path. Having a grounded source allows detection of a fault of either hot or grounded conductor.
I agree with what you are saying. W/out a grounded source, it takes 2 faults for a shock hazard. Chances are that 1st fault is after the GFP and if it is, the GFCI will not see the 2nd fault as a problem. You would need a path for current that does not go back to the GFCI in order to trip it. So, if you had 2 faults after the GFCI, the GFCI will not work.fault between "hot" and "neutral" won't trip the GFCI even on a grounded system. Current that isn't flowing back through the GFCI is what is needed to trip it. With ungrounded system there can't be ground fault current until there is a ground reference - which is what happens with the first fault.