Lock out tag out, opinion!

[benaround]

Some equipment uses more than just electricity. There's steam, water (under pressure), hazardous gases or liquids, kinetic (such as a suspended weight or compressed/expended spring), etc.

Typically, you're in an industrial environment (such as a factory) when you get into this type of stuff, and they should have a LOTO kit you can use with your lock. But sometimes you run up across something out of the blue and you need to have your own LOTO pieces.

I have my own LOTO stuff and use them all the time, but I'm not a plumber,

or a steam fitter, or the installer of hazardous gases etc., if such things need

valves shut off, believe me, It won't be me shutting them down and locking them out.

 

[jameselectric]

I have my own LOTO stuff and use them all the time, but I'm not a plumber,

or a steam fitter, or the installer of hazardous gases etc., if such things need

valves shut off, believe me, It won't be me shutting them down and locking them out.

What people dont seem to understand, is that you dont have necessarily shut it down, cause you may not know how, HOWEVER you do have to put your lock on it if you are working on the equipment.

 

[ultramegabob]

I think you and ultramegabob missed the point, THIS WAS NOT A LOTO PERIOD!! I wasnt trying to LOTO, and that is why i did not do it.

I thought that you turned the breaker off and marked it with red tape, thats where I thought you made your mistake, I would have just told him the circuit number and washed my hands of it, in my opinion for what its worth, putting the red tape on it "appears" to be a poor attempt of locking out the circuit. If you hadnt put tape on it, do you think you would be under scrutiny now?

 

[BackInTheHabit]

I thought that you turned the breaker off and marked it with red tape, thats where I thought you made your mistake, I would have just told him the circuit number and washed my hands of it, in my opinion for what its worth, putting the red tape on it "appears" to be a poor attempt of locking out the circuit. If you hadnt put tape on it, do you think you would be under scrutiny now?

 

[jameselectric]

I thought that you turned the breaker off and marked it with red tape, thats where I thought you made your mistake, I would have just told him the circuit number and washed my hands of it, in my opinion for what its worth, putting the red tape on it "appears" to be a poor attempt of locking out the circuit. If you hadnt put tape on it, do you think you would be under scrutiny now?

Im not under 'scrutiny' and we have clear lock out tag out procedures, the 'turning off the breaker and using red tape' was only a IDENTIFICATION means, which is perfectly legal. thanks for your opinion though.

 

[ultramegabob]

to answer your question, the plumber needed to have his own lock on whatever he needed shut off.

 

[480sparky]

.... Just look at the ladder safety rules...

OSHA could save a lot of trees in that area. Just boil the whole thing down to "Ladders are unsafe. Do not use them."

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Ok, heres the situation. Working at a location and the plumber contact me about a piece of equipement(steamer, supply etc) that THEY are working on. they ask if i could trace out the circuit so THEY know which one it is so the power can be off.

Has this equipment never been serviced before?

If you've identified the circuit, is there a label at the equipment to identify the circuit to service the equipment?

Are there no means to disconnect the equipment other than the breaker?

 

[jameselectric]

Has this equipment never been serviced before? ?

Yes, by another electrician and apparently he never labeled anything. This panel schedule it has is pretty bad.

If you've identified the circuit, is there a label at the equipment to identify the circuit to service the equipment??

Yes the label I installed AFTER I 'circuit traced it'.

Are there no means to disconnect the equipment other than the breaker?

This is correct. The breaker is the only other means to disconnect the line side of this equipment

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Yes, by another electrician and apparently he never labeled anything. This panel schedule it has is pretty bad.


Yes the label I installed AFTER I 'circuit traced it'.


This is correct. The breaker is the only other means to disconnect the line side of this equipment

Just curious. I have run into these from time to time. Unfortunately, proper panel labeling seems to not be a priority to some.

Although my background is residential, I have spent time in commercial. Most recently operating a bucket truck servicing light poles. (Due to lack of work was just recently laid off.) My employer mentioned many training opportunities for myself and my co-workers, but they never occured. Needless to say OSHA training or Arc Flash training weren't on the top of their list.

No hard feelings.:smile:

 

[jameselectric]

Just curious. I have run into these from time to time. Unfortunately, proper panel labeling seems to not be a priority to some.

Although my background is residential, I have spent time in commercial. Most recently operating a bucket truck servicing light poles. (Due to lack of work was just recently laid off.) My employer mentioned many training opportunities for myself and my co-workers, but they never occured. Needless to say OSHA training or Arc Flash training weren't on the top of their list.

No hard feelings.:smile:

No hard feelings at all. I would suggest that you search the net and try to get up to speed on the osha safety and NFPA 70E electrical safety. Remember, ITS your life that YOU are protecting/saving. So if the employer dont provide it, seek it yourself.

 

[iwire]

LOTO applies to any employee, and any source of energy be it electrical, pneumatic, spring tension etc.

Nowhere in OSHA will you find the word electrician.

If a plumber is working on it they are required to lock it out, if you come along and want to work on it you have to add a lock.

 

[e57]

Sorry Jameselectric - but I have to say you may be well in the wrong - or possibley misunderstood your task - you were supposed to make it safe for the plumbers to do thier work. The "how" - is not in the "why" here in your case IMO. You were asked to "Safe Off" +/or LOTO some equipment for some non-electrically enclined Plumbers. You showed up - 'traced out' the circuit shut it off and left a piece of 'tape' over the breaker.... (Then someone turned it back on??? Or otherwise turned into a fiasco...) Does your shop or facility just have a "Personal LOTO Program" and lack a "Group (Facility) LOTO Program"?????

IMO - you should have gone a few steps further. Traced and double checked that all of what was on the circuit were supposed to be off, and seperated them - tagged the wires and tag in the panel with contact info to reconnect. Or properly locked the breaker with "YOUR" lock and tag with the info, and then went and got a new one for yourself.... Or just waited to get your stuff back. As it sounds like the plumber is not qualified to re-energize the equipment when he's done with what he was there to do. So having his lock there may have been more of a hazard - which is why you were sent to do it.

Truthfully if your ONE PERSONAL LOCK is so precious in this instance - Then you're definately in need of a dozen or so (Group) Exended Electrical Outage / Operations Supervisory Locks each with a multi-lock hasp for the Electrical (Craft) side of your facilty... You can order a case or more all master/tier keyed and supervised by your shop. And short the expense of getting a fancy tag for each, you can go to a copy shop and fire off custom ones, at least one for each and get them laminated for ~10-20 bucks, as for the breaker and switch fittings just suck it up and order them. Number them and make a chart for where and why stuff is off, with a key log and set procedure for access. Because you are going to have to leave stuff locked sometimes - that is just the way it goes.... Even if your lock is not there - it still gets locked and stays locked untill someone is assigned from your shop checks out a key, and clears the equipment for service to remove it. All personal LOTO is on top of this...

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/lototraining/hottopics/ht-gloto-3-1.html

 

[iwire]

Marc I disagree, the plumber must install their own lock

From your link

........each employee must affix his/her personal lockout or tagout device to the group lockout device.....

 

[e57]

Marc I disagree, the plumber must install their own lock

From your link

I don't think we disagree at all - the plumber needs to put his on the Group - but if the Electrical (Craft) was assigned to Safe Off, or Group LOTO the circuit as a safety procedure - I doubt a piece of red meaningless tape qualifies.... Even if only for identification. The dope plumber still needs to take the tape off to put his lock on, and in the process puts his on the wrong one..... Sounds as there is no group tag to speak of.... Just MY Lock and Your Lock

 

[iwire]

I don't think we disagree at all - the plumber needs to put his on the Group -

Mark, James can not leave the premises with his lock in place except for some specific reasons.

 

[iwire]

I should say that without being there I am not sure if I would have done the same as James or not.

 

[e57]

~~~~~ All personal LOTO is on top of this...

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/lototraining/hottopics/ht-gloto-3-1.html

Now you got me quoting myself....

 

[iwire]

Mark, that is a Joe Tedsco move. :grin:

Help me out, cut and paste what you wanted me to see.

 

[e57]

Mark, James can not leave the premises with his lock in place except for some specific reasons.

True - which in situations like this that I have been in before I go back to whoever is supervising the LOTO program and tell them what is up - they put thier lock on it, or issue me a new one.... Mine is now theirs once the paperwork is filled out.... (And I turn in the key of course.)