Long Sweep Ells
- Thread starter robeward
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Typically they have a larger radius than a standard bend and can vary in radius depending on the design parameters.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
"ell" indicates either an "L" shaped (right angle) connection of the two ends or is a contraction of "elbow".
Any 90 degree connection is an ell. The distinction is not between sweep ells and regular sweeps in terms of radius of curvature, it is between, for example, 45 degree sweeps and 90 degree sweeps.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Unless you have a long pull and need to reduce the sidewall pressure when the conductors are being installed, there is no real reason to use long radius bends.
drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
Building it as designed & as specified is one reason that comes to mind.
I didn't specify but for this scenario we are talking about rigid. only other reason other than being called out on drawings would be to get proper cover over the conduit if i am stubbing up into box and don't want to make a nipple. i am surprised at the number of options for radii though.
my main concern was the term 'ells' and whether or not it was referring to something specific.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Digger, what does this mean?
i took it as using the word 'ell' is basically saying a 90 degree sweep. so 30, 45 and 90 are all conduit sweeps but a sweep ell is a 90 degree. I was originally thinking the word 'ell' was referring to a specific radius.
meternerd
Senior Member
- Location
- Athol, ID
- Occupation
- retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
"Ell" is actually mostly a plumbing term for elbows. The utility industry, at least in my experience, calls a normal bend a 90 and a long bend a sweep. We require sweeps for all underground service conduits to reduce the pulling tension for service conductors. Easier for us to have a generic requirement than to specify the bends on every individual job. We also don't allow any "heated" bends because it can reduce the diameter of the conduit. Also a total of 180 deg. in the run. If it's a service conduit, submitting it to the utility can save a lot of extra work and expense.
Last edited:
When looking online most of the references we're plumbing so that makes sense.
Not sure why the term was placed on the drawing with no spec as to a radius. It seems most manufactures offer about five different ones and unless situation dictates we just get whatever is on the shelf.
And yes we mostly see the radius specified with the utilities. Thanks for the input
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Do they heat regular conduit to make factory PVC elbows? I have occasionally seen some of those that have questionable diameter or even out of round at the ends.
meternerd
Senior Member
- Location
- Athol, ID
- Occupation
- retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
I don't know how they mold PVC bends, but I'm guessing they use a mandrel with some sort of insert to maintain the inner diameter. I don't recall any that were out of round enough that they were difficult to fit to the next pipe section. Most of ours were already installed by the contractor. We just made 'em replace the sections that didn't meet our requirements. More than one UNhappy builder......but, hey, our requirements and our phone number were available on the internet, so not much sympathy. We have an electric conduit heater we use for our water pump station conduits, but we don't ever use 'em for services. I don't think it would be possible to make a "factory looking" bend with just a heater and bare hands. The stuff is really easy to kink. Again, it's just easier for us to make generic rules than to deal with every contractor's idea of what is OK. We're the ones who have to pull the cables, so we tend to be pretty strict. Time is money!
Last edited:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I have bent a lot of small conduit without much trouble, 2, 2.5 and 3 inch I have made longer radius elbows with little problem, shorter radius bends are often difficult to make "bare handed" without distortion of the diameter of the pipe.I don't know how they mold PVC bends, but I'm guessing they use a mandrel with some sort of insert to maintain the inner diameter. I don't recall any that were out of round enough that they were difficult to fit to the next pipe section. Most of ours were already installed by the contractor. We just made 'em replace the sections that didn't meet our requirements. More than one UNhappy builder......but, hey, our requirements and our phone number were available on the internet, so not much sympathy. We have an electric conduit heater we use for our water pump station conduits, but we don't ever use 'em for services. I don't think it would be possible to make a "factory looking" bend with just a heater and bare hands. The stuff is really easy to kink. Again, it's just easier for us to make generic rules than to deal with every contractor's idea of what is OK. We're the ones who have to pull the cables, so we tend to be pretty strict. Time is money!
Most long radius bends I have made in 2-3 inch PVC were also with schedule 80 - which doesn't distort as easily as sch 40.
Frank DuVal
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer
ell is slang or short for elbow. It can be ANY degrees. And any material. Typical plumbing talk. They also use the term bends and fraction of 360 degrees. i.e. a 90 degree elbow is a 1/4 bend.
Graybar use the term ELL for their electrical PVC elbow part numbers. i.e. ELL-45-6-48R. That is a 45 degree 6 inch elbow.
Graybar use the term ELL for their electrical PVC elbow part numbers. i.e. ELL-45-6-48R. That is a 45 degree 6 inch elbow.
Carultch
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Do long radius sweeps really reduce pulling tension compared to their standard radius counterparts?
According to most pulling tension calculators, radius of sweep has zero effect on pulling tension. It affects side wall pressure, i.e. how localized the pulling tension and friction is on each fiber of raceway and insulation material, but not the net effect of pulling tension.
MAC702
Senior Member
- Location
- Clark County, NV
Good question, but I have to believe it does. Perhaps these "calculators" are giving you worst case?
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Laziness in my opinion. Whenever I see this lack of detail on the plan, I figure I will have me men install a longer than minimum sweep elbow, but if they don't or it isn't as "long" at the engineer meant then tough for him. Any elbow I install is a longer sweep than a plumbing elbow, so technically it is a long sweep.
Carultch
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
It is based on the Capstan Equation for bends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capstan_equation
"Note that the radius of the cylinder has no influence on the force gain."
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
With 48 inch radius I would guess.
Well at some point it about has to. Very short radius "plumbing elbows" definitely seem to require more pulling tension then the minimum NEC bending radius does. I guess if it didn't matter then there wouldn't be as much of a need for minimum bending radius either.
- Status