Looking for a simple pool-bonding outline

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LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Is there a post or thread that outlines pool-bonding requirements? I did a search and found too many threads to look through.
 
Mike should have something on it, usually the handbooks do too. Keyword search would give you too many as you found out. Don’t know what keywords would get you better filtering.
 
Search Kieth Lofland pool bonding, IMO he explains and shows it better than anyone.

Roger
 
I do understand the code requirements, but I'm not familiar with the hardware, since I have not done a pool on my own, despite 50+ years of experience. Like my electrical experience, as I knew more theory than the guys I worked with as a helper.

What I already understand is the bond of pool bottom and/or walls (metal) or rebar (concrete) to the surround mesh in at least four places, a metal ladder (there will be one), and any other metal fittings, and to the pool pump and heat-pump.

What I do not understand is whether the pool will have lugs bolted to the metal walls or rebar poked out like an Ufer, or whether the surround concrete will be made with a qualifying mesh or rebar, or if the ladder or its hardware will have a lug.

In other words, for the mesh-to-pool bonding, will I need to make four or eight connections? For the ladder, will I need to make one or two? Also, must every connection be permanent/irreversible, or only the inaccessible/underground connections?

For the bond between the pool/ladder/surround and the remotely-located pump and heater, just a single bare #8 run with the supply/return water pipes without protection like FNMC is adequate? No other protection where it emerges from earth?

Lastly, I understand the difference between bonding and grounding. The pump (and possibly the heat-pump) has external lugs. So, the pump body is probably all that will interconnect the bonding system and the EGC. That's adequate, correct?
 
I feel like if I wait for the pool to be installed, these questions will answer themselves, but I'm being asked for a proposal now. The power circuitry I understand, just like any other equipment. The bonding wire need not even land in the panel.

I'll be running a feeder to an exterior panel on the back of the garage, where I'll supply the heat pump, the pump/controller, and a service receptacle. Must the feeder's EGC be insulated (PVC conduit), or must each branch circuit's EGC be?

There is a 3/4" PVC conduit feeding a mini-split for the garage. What I would like to do is re-use the conduit for a 60-amp feeder. May the mini-split be supplied by the same panel as the pool equipment, or must I run a separate feeder?

With #6 copper wire (largest in 3/4" PVC), may I use a 70a breaker, as long as the calculated load is no more than 65? I don't recall seeing a 65a breaker. How do motor/HVAC allowances affect feeder-breaker allowances? May I go larger?

Any and all suggestions and corrections are welcome. I hope to complete and send the proposal tonight.
 
LarryFine said:
I feel like if I wait for the pool to be installed, these questions will answer themselves, but I'm being asked for a proposal now. The power circuitry I understand, just like any other equipment. The bonding wire need not even land in the panel.

I'll be running a feeder to an exterior panel on the back of the garage, where I'll supply the heat pump, the pump/controller, and a service receptacle. Must the feeder's EGC be insulated (PVC conduit), or must each branch circuit's EGC be?

There is a 3/4" PVC conduit feeding a mini-split for the garage. What I would like to do is re-use the conduit for a 60-amp feeder. May the mini-split be supplied by the same panel as the pool equipment, or must I run a separate feeder?

With #6 copper wire (largest in 3/4" PVC), may I use a 70a breaker, as long as the calculated load is no more than 65? I don't recall seeing a 65a breaker. How do motor/HVAC allowances affect feeder-breaker allowances? May I go larger?

Any and all suggestions and corrections are welcome. I hope to complete and send the proposal tonight.
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I've done several pools and can offer what I've encountered. For the inground pools, I have done metal, partially recessed, fiberglass, and concrete, both poured and gunite. I'll start with the poured concrete pool.
Most, if not all, of the ones I have done had the coated rebar that didn't need bonding. So there was no grid (mesh) surrounding the pool. I placed the bare #8 (halo ring) around the pool, 18-24" from the inside walls and 6" below subgrade. You only need to bond the ring in one place and take it to the required items that need bonding. For the ladders, they will come with lugs on each cup that are set before the concrete is poured for the deck. It is very important that you connect to BOTH lugs and not just one. Connecting to just one would be worse than not connecting at all since you would have a potential between the two sides of the ladder. Since bonding the ladder will also bond the water, no additional water bond is needed.

For a metal wall pool, there are no lugs (that I have ever seen) that come with it. What I do is pick 4 equally spaced points around the pool and add lugs. There usually is some empty holes that are not used to connect the metal sides together that you can add a lug to with bolts, washers, lock washers, and nuts, all stainless. If there are no extra holes, just remove one of the bolts, add a lug, and put the bolts back. The lugs need to be rated for direct burial and will have "DB" stamped on them. The lay-in type works best. You then either run the #6 ring through the lugs, or use jumpers from the lugs to the ring and attach them with split bolts. I prefer the jumpers as they are easier then trying to feed the ring through the lugs and it also allows the ring to keep the required distance from the pool.

The rules have changed as to the insulated EGC. Basically if it's not in a corrosive area, you can use any Chapter 3 wiring method. You do not have to run the bond back to the panel.

I tried to (hurriedly) address some of your concerns, but if you have specific questions that I didn't cover, just ask them and I will do my best to answer them.
 
Thank you, Bill. I was just told that it will be an in-ground pool with an aluminum wall shell, and there will be a poured-concrete surround. Will the reinforcing mesh the contractor uses also be adequate for the bonding?

I think four individual jumpers between the pool and the mesh sounds easiest. Where should I connect the bonding wire of the remote equipment, at the nearest point of the mesh, or should I take it to the pool shell?
 
LarryFine said:
With #6 copper wire (largest in 3/4" PVC), may I use a 70a breaker, as long as the calculated load is no more than 65?
Click to expand...
Yes.

LarryFine said:
I don't recall seeing a 65a breaker. How do motor/HVAC allowances affect feeder-breaker allowances? May I go larger?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you can go larger, but the governing code section for a feeder is 430.63, which I find confusing as it doesn't specify a maximum size, only a minimum size. I started a thread on this question but it hasn't yielded much clarity:

Motor Feeders, Article 430 Part V (430.63 Weirdness)

I'm trying to understand the rules for conductor and OCPD sizing for feeders supplying motors and possibly other loads. In particular, 430.62 (Part V) on a feeder with just motor loads seems straightforward enough. 430.62(A) says if you size your conductors based on the motor rules in 430.24...
xenforo.mikeholt.com

Cheers, Wayne
 
LarryFine said:
Thank you, Bill. I was just told that it will be an in-ground pool with an aluminum wall shell, and there will be a poured-concrete surround. Will the reinforcing mesh the contractor uses also be adequate for the bonding?

I think four individual jumpers between the pool and the mesh sounds easiest. Where should I connect the bonding wire of the remote equipment, at the nearest point of the mesh, or should I take it to the pool shell?
Click to expand...
As long as the mesh is a conductive material and at the correct distance from the pool walls it will suffice. If the mesh is used it would be fine to connect to it but might be easier to just split bolt it from one of the jumpers. You probably need to find out if the mesh used will be conductive so you know whether to use the bare #8 bonding ring as it would need to be placed and inspected before the pour. As well as the mesh, if used, would have to be inspected before the pour.
 
The customer/homeowner hasn't selected a contractor yet, so there's nobody to ask about construction details.


wwhitney said:
I started a thread on this question but it hasn't yielded much clarity:
Click to expand...
Interesting read, thanx. That points directly to my situation. I have to supply the pool heat pump, the pump motor, and the existing garage mini-split. My main goal is to use the existing 3/4" PVC and avoid nuisance tripping of the feeder breaker.

I'm waiting on the customer to call me back about the numbers, but I remember the heat pump calling for a 50a breaker, and the pump having about a 6a running current. I should have checked the mini-split's numbers, too. I'll post a.s.a.p.

As a side question: My plan is to place the sub-panel on the back of the garage, replacing the mini-split disco. The garage is connected to the house by an open breezeway, so I should not need a main breaker in the sub-panel, correct?
 
New info:

The pool heat-pump has an MCA of 29.3a, and an MOC range of of 40-60a. So, #10 cu and probably a 50a breaker.

The pump motor is variable speed, 230v only, with 0.4 to 5.6a running current. So, #14 is plenty and a 15a breaker.

The mini-split is only 120v, on a 20a 1p breaker, so I'll balance that with the service GFCI receptacle by the panel.

So, it looks to me like #6 copper and a 70a breaker should work for the feeder. Please let me know if I'm wrong.


For my side question above, an electrode is not required for the sub-panel if it needs no main breaker, correct?
 
If I'm not mistaken, the breezeway defines the garage as attached in these-here parts.

The panel would end up on the outside of the garage, on the wall opposite the house.
 
LarryFine said:
If I'm not mistaken, the breezeway defines the garage as attached in these-here parts.

The panel would end up on the outside of the garage, on the wall opposite the house.
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Breezeway would be be enough here. They basically are looking for a roof connection. So, in your case no grounding electrode is needed.
 
So, approximately how much does it cost for the necessary hardware? $100.00?

I have found a Greaves CBM310K CU Mesh Kit in the $700 range with shipping.

I'd need more clamps and jumpers, plus a length of #8 for the equipment run.
 
LarryFine said:
So, approximately how much does it cost for the necessary hardware? $100.00?

I have found a Greaves CBM310K CU Mesh Kit in the $700 range with shipping.

I'd need more clamps and jumpers, plus a length of #8 for the equipment run.
Click to expand...
Pool contractor should furnish the mesh, filter pump, & heat pump, or maybe the concrete contractor for the mesh. All I've ever furnished was the #8 and associated fittings. Split bolts are around $3 ea, lugs $5-$7 ea, not sure on the bare #8 but should be around .50 per ft. Also the contractor should furnish the ladder, handrails, mounting cups w/lugs etc.
 
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