Looking for a small 200 M/L BR panel

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norcal said:
As much as I hate propane if was going to install a tankless WH where there was no natural gas available would go propane, rather then a major increase of the service size. My tank type WH is close to 40 years old, doubt any tankless would last that long.
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I have to agree, if one wants an instant water heater, gas (or LP) is most likely the best way to go. Don't know the payback period is worth it for needing to upgrade electric service, especially the further north you are. As I mentioned earlier, the heat losses from a storage tank are not a complete loss - that heat is lost to your home and during heating season isn't really a total loss. It you happen to have electric heating it isn't really a loss at all.
 
Electric tank heaters are great because of the marvel of electricity, they can be nearly completely insulated. I read a study that showed the losses between 500 and 1000 KWH/yr, depending on the the quality and insulation level. Gas tank heaters are quite lossy because of the flue lossess. Where natural gas is available, its probably not that big a deal because natural gas is so cheap. Propane tank heaters though, IMO, are awful. I had a 40 gal propane just sitting idle, and it chewed through a 100 pound tank surprisingly quickly (I just dont remember how long, maybe a few months).
 
electrofelon said:
Electric tank heaters are great because of the marvel of electricity, they can be nearly completely insulated. I read a study that showed the losses between 500 and 1000 KWH/yr, depending on the the quality and insulation level. Gas tank heaters are quite lossy because of the flue lossess. Where natural gas is available, its probably not that big a deal because natural gas is so cheap. Propane tank heaters though, IMO, are awful. I had a 40 gal propane just sitting idle, and it chewed through a 100 pound tank surprisingly quickly (I just dont remember how long, maybe a few months).
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A standing pilot takes quite a bit of gas over time whether NG or LP, it is just that you don't have to refill a tank when connected to a pipeline system.
 
I would never go tankless on the promise of energy savings. Even with a family of 4, there is enough usage that the standby losses are dwarfed by the usage. I was one of 5 children growing up, and in a family of 7 the appeal would be the availability of "endless" hot water, and that's the only reason to go tankless, unless your utility space is just crazy limited. Also, I would never do electric, at $0.12/kW-hr and our usage the bill would be terrifying. I'd go natural gas, which the house already has.

Further on gas tankless, I looked into that when I thought our current water heater was giving up the ghost. IIRC, for our demand it would have been $1,200 for the unit alone, less installation versus about $350 for a standard 50 gallon unit.

One last thing on gas hot water heaters. If we lose power during the coming storm, we'll still be able to take hot showers since the heater has a standing pilot.
 
gadfly56 said:
I would never go tankless on the promise of energy savings. Even with a family of 4, there is enough usage that the standby losses are dwarfed by the usage. I was one of 5 children growing up, and in a family of 7 the appeal would be the availability of "endless" hot water, and that's the only reason to go tankless, unless your utility space is just crazy limited. Also, I would never do electric, at $0.12/kW-hr and our usage the bill would be terrifying. I'd go natural gas, which the house already has.

Further on gas tankless, I looked into that when I thought our current water heater was giving up the ghost. IIRC, for our demand it would have been $1,200 for the unit alone, less installation versus about $350 for a standard 50 gallon unit.

One last thing on gas hot water heaters. If we lose power during the coming storm, we'll still be able to take hot showers since the heater has a standing pilot.
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I won't be taking shower in that case unless I fired up my generator - my water comes from my own well. My generator can run my storage tank electric water heater though, will not run an electric instantaneous water heater, not enough kVA.
 
That 5 watts on standby sounds like every wall wart power supply people have plugged in all over their house for every electronic device they own (phones, pads, pods, cable tv boxes, dvrs, dvd players, etc.).;) And now they want to build these into receptacles so you can't unplug them.....

Had tank type heater, but our water quality opened it up in less than 10 years. Well X Trol tank followed by several months. Replaced with tankless and love it. Never calculated any savings, just less floor space and stainless steel guts. We will see how long it lasts. Our tank type propane was direct vent and cost near 1K, so tankless was not so much more.

I use propane because of power failures. Yes, have pump so run generator all the time for water, heat, lights, wife happy, etc. Generator not big enough to power tank water heater and well pump at same time while keeping the gas furnace tv, etc happy. Someday, maybe whole house....

Generator ran 62 hours last weekend.:eek:

Hot showers and warm house, wife happy.:thumbsup:
 
Finally getting this done. Permit obtained and POCO contacted. I was told I have the option of doing the meter base swap hot (!) or have the power disconnected, requiring an inspection to restore power.

The POCO told me it would cost $500 to have the underground-fed service de-energized for the meter base swap-out. I never heard of charges for an upgrade where they know they will be selling more power.

The conductors will not reach the larger meter base's lugs, so will have to be extended, unless I cut the incoming conduit and lower the existing disconnect. I'm not comfortable doing this hot in any case.


Comments and suggestions, please.
 
LarryFine said:
Finally getting this done. Permit obtained and POCO contacted. I was told I have the option of doing the meter base swap hot (!) or have the power disconnected, requiring an inspection to restore power.

The POCO told me it would cost $500 to have the underground-fed service de-energized for the meter base swap-out. I never heard of charges for an upgrade where they know they will be selling more power.

The conductors will not reach the larger meter base's lugs, so will have to be extended, unless I cut the incoming conduit and lower the existing disconnect. I'm not comfortable doing this hot in any case.


Comments and suggestions, please.
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I have never herd of them charging to disconnect power.

If they have to do any underground boring/trenching to replace their service cables there can be a charge. They charge by the foot so it can add up.

Normally you would talk to a power company engineer before starting the job and they would give you an idea of the charges.

I never herd of the option to change out hot. They normally frown on that.

I did a job about 5 years ago and got past their boring charge by showing them that their cable was dangerous and needed to be replaced anyway. There were places where it was on top of the soil. They had one heck of a time boring through all those rocks.
 
I've had lots of people call me wanting to install these electric instant water heaters. It's usually a big one requiring 120-180 amps of additional load. When I explain to them that putting that much additional load in their existing 150-200 amp panel won't work and that I would have to upgrade their service to 320-400 amps, they always decline. The cost of the upgrade wipes out any potential savings.

I've also had people who live in condos with un-upgradable multipack meters serving a bunch of units ask the same thing. "Sorry, I can't put 180 additional amps on your 125 amp panel and I can't upgrade it to a larger size."

Most people really have no clue about electrical services.

P.S. I always suggest they consider a gas-fired instant W/H instead. It only requires a 15 amp circuit and a 100 gallon propane tank.
 
Coppersmith said:
I've had lots of people call me wanting to install these electric instant water heaters. It's usually a big one requiring 120-180 amps of additional load. When I explain to them that putting that much additional load in their existing 150-200 amp panel won't work and that I would have to upgrade their service to 320-400 amps, they always decline. The cost of the upgrade wipes out any potential savings.

I've also had people who live in condos with un-upgradable multipack meters serving a bunch of units ask the same thing. "Sorry, I can't put 180 additional amps on your 125 amp panel and I can't upgrade it to a larger size."

Most people really have no clue about electrical services.

P.S. I always suggest they consider a gas-fired instant W/H instead. It only requires a 15 amp circuit and a 100 gallon propane tank.
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Had someone that I know that doesn't have a lot of $$, lives in a mobile home (1970's mobile home that isn't in great shape but is surprisingly in as good of shape as it is) call me wanting me to hook up their new water heater.

Get there and it is instant electric hot water heater, already installed in space where old gas water heater was. Had to tell them they don't have enough power to the house to run the thing and that they likely don't want to do what is necessary to be able to run it either.
 
This home is in an all-electric neighborhood, so gas is out.

The POCO tells me that the incoming conductors, which are too short to reach the larger meter base lugs, may not be spliced inside the meter base, so must be spliced underground. That's better???
 
LarryFine said:
I'm in the process of wiring a residential tankless water heater that uses four 40-a breakers, so I'm adding a second 200a M/L panel (no neutral) complete with second exterior 200a main and 400/320a meter upgrade.

Anyone know the smallest 200a M/L Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) type BR flush-mount indoor panel available? I'm looking for something in the 10- to 16-space range. I could make do with a redundant M/B if necessary.
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M/L panel?
What is M/L in this context?

Ignorant Brit strikes again........:)
Thanks in advance.
 
Besoeker said:
M/L panel?
What is M/L in this context?

Ignorant Brit strikes again........:)
Thanks in advance.
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Main lugs only (no main breaker installed within the panel)

I was wandering what he meant by redundant M/B? Something made by PFE or Zinsco?:D
 
By redundant, I mean using a panel with a main breaker when there already is a main breaker upstream.
 
Well, it got done! The engineers came out and suggested doing this work "hot" like I would an overhead service. They said to detach the existing meter base from the wall, mount everything, and then install temporary jumpers from the old meter load lugs to the new meter. Since it has a bypass lever I was able to use the line-side lugs.

I pulled the meter, took the base off and pulled it away from the wall with just enough flexibility in the PVC and the dirt to get the new meter base behind it. I used the existing 1' of 2" conduit from the original disco and duplicated it for the new disco, and installed new conductors in both (the old ones wouldn't reach the new base's lugs).

I was able to use the removed conductors from the existing disco as the jumpers between meter bases, so no waste there. The whole thing took me about 1.5 hours, working alone. The worst part was the mess of anti-ox compound, which I always use on aluminum outdoors. The best part is the POCO said they'll do their part free!
 
I almost forgot to update this. Had my inspection yesterday. The inspector said that I had to use SER instead of SE for the feeder, even though the loads are only line-to-line. I explained that the neutral could stop at the exterior disconnect, but he said that, because it's a feeder, the neutral had to be run to the interior panel. I told him I would consult the code and get back to him.

He said that he's never heard of a feeder without a neutral in 20+ years of inspecting and agreed to call the head inspector (whom I know) for his opinion. The head inspector agreed with the inspector, and also never heard of a feeder with no neutral. As the inspector was typing the failure on his laptop, the head inspector called back and said that I was correct. That made my day!
 
LarryFine said:
I almost forgot to update this. Had my inspection yesterday. The inspector said that I had to use SER instead of SE for the feeder, even though the loads are only line-to-line. I explained that the neutral could stop at the exterior disconnect, but he said that, because it's a feeder, the neutral had to be run to the interior panel. I told him I would consult the code and get back to him.

He said that he's never heard of a feeder without a neutral in 20+ years of inspecting and agreed to call the head inspector (whom I know) for his opinion. The head inspector agreed with the inspector, and also never heard of a feeder with no neutral. As the inspector was typing the failure on his laptop, the head inspector called back and said that I was correct. That made my day!
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Glad you stood your ground on interpretation of this. Many just give in and do what is asked.

I haven't ran too many 240 volt feeders with no neutral, but have a few times. Someone always wants to come in later and add a 120 volt load is a reason to add a neutral anyway. I have run a few with a neutral as small as the required EGC just because of this as well. One more recent example is a 600 amp feeder that supplied most of it's capacity to HVAC equipment, none of which utilized a neutral conductor. Ran smallest neutral allowed (same size as EGC) because we did have very minimal 120 volt lighting and a couple 120 volt receptacles in the area of this equipment. If not for those 120 volt loads I would have considered not even running a neutral.

Ran many more 480 volt feeders with no neutral. Unless there is going to be 277 volt lighting not much will ever utilize that neutral in all the cases I have done this.
 
Since the original panel is still there, and now with no water-heater circuit, any loads that require a neutral can and should be supplied there.

I have actually challenged (civilly) an inspector's failure twice in the past, and was proven correct both times. I'm sure I'm right before I act.
 
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