Loose neutral??

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brother

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Was helping a friend out on his home. Old panel, told him to get it changed, however the voltage reading between the 2 hots at the panel was 271 and 252 when fluctuated. 135 to 140 line to ground/neutral. This is with all the other breakers off/no load. We did have a good storm recently, sounds like a loose neutral to me and a potential problem from another house. what do you think??
 
Since both legs are equal, it doesn't sound like a neutral issue to me. Sounds more like you need to get the POCO out there and possibly have them change their x-former taps.
 
This type of condition "Loose Neutral" is really called a "High/low voltage event" i.e. one is high the other is low, and usually detected under unbalanced load conditions with the loads in series between the ungrounded conductors. The absence of a 'low' would detract from the basic describtion. If the conditions described were taken with no load from the main terminals it would suggest any problem - if any were before the POS - the neighbors would also be affected...

High voltages like described are not necesarily bad - although they do seem too high - but if they are in fact that high, changing the panel will not do anything but waste money of your friend. A panel being "OLD" does not mean it is need of replacement.
 
e57 said:
This type of condition "Loose Neutral" is really called a "High/low voltage event" i.e. one is high the other is low, and usually detected under unbalanced load conditions with the loads in series between the ungrounded conductors. The absence of a 'low' would detract from the basic describtion. If the conditions described were taken with no load from the main terminals it would suggest any problem - if any were before the POS - the neighbors would also be affected...

High voltages like described are not necesarily bad - although they do seem too high - but if they are in fact that high, changing the panel will not do anything but waste money of your friend. A panel being "OLD" does not mean it is need of replacement.
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The panel had 'water' in the bottom of if from a leak and it was pretty well rusted out. Who ever ran the conduit for the 'septic' didnt seal the hole of penetration and now water gets in there. The only good thing is that its at bottom and hasnt directly affected the other circuits yet. It did seem as if there was a start of leak at the mast, but for some reason its not in the panel yet.
 
Arrange to drain with a weep hole - bust the rust with a brush, and coat with any paint color of your choice. Call your POCO to see if thier max voltage is less than what you get with another meter check. That is if your meter is right.... Voltage will drop under load, and the T may have been set up to handle a much larger nominal load that is not there any longer.
 
If the phase to phase voltage is high, that has nothing to do with a loose neutral. It stands to reason that if the phase to phase voltage is high, phase to neutral will be accordingly high also. It's a PoCo problem with the transformer.
 
Most POCO's have a plus or minus of 5% so 252 volt would be the maximum to expect. I would put a small load on the panel then check the voltage. But for sure a call to the POCO would be in order, since they will not charge for coming out.
 
acrwc10 said:
Most POCO's have a plus or minus of 5% so 252 volt would be the maximum to expect. I would put a small load on the panel then check the voltage. But for sure a call to the POCO would be in order, since they will not charge for coming out.
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well it did get as high as 271 phase to phase, and you are right the poco needs to be called. If you saw this panel though, you would STRONGLY suggest the home owner get it replaced.
 
brother said:
well it did get as high as 271 phase to phase, and you are right the poco needs to be called. If you saw this panel though, you would STRONGLY suggest the home owner get it replaced.
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I suggest to anyone that owns panels with any rust or corrosion on that they replace it. That's how we make a living, after all.

Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut...
 
mdshunk said:
I suggest to anyone that owns panels with any rust or corrosion on that they replace it. That's how we make a living, after all.

Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut...
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But to suggest that the voltage issue has anything to do with the panels age or cosmetic condition is like saying the haircut will solve your self-esteem issues.
 
e57 said:
But to suggest that the voltage issue has anything to do with the panels age or cosmetic condition ...
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Who suggested that???

Here's what I'd do... recommend a panel replacement, get that job, and have the PoCo check things out concurrently with the panel replacement. No point in offering extra information. Just don't suggest that the panel condition has anything to do with the measured high voltage and you haven't done anything wrong.

PS... and a fresh haircut does give you a new outlook on life for a couple days.
 
mdshunk said:
Who suggested that???

Here's what I'd do... recommend a panel replacement, get that job, and have the PoCo check things out concurrently with the panel replacement. No point in offering extra information. Just don't suggest that the panel condition has anything to do with the measured high voltage and you haven't done anything wrong.

PS... and a fresh haircut does give you a new outlook on life for a couple days.
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Or help the barber pay the rent for a few days. :D
I could not agree with Marc more, when people want to know "How" I am going to do the work they need to hire me first, I am not a how to adviser to home owners.
 
mdshunk said:
PS... and a fresh haircut does give you a new outlook on life for a couple days.
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I've had the same haircut for nearly 2 decades - changing it is not going to help my bad knee. But if I had surgery at the same time - the increased range of motion could be attributed to the haircut.... :rolleyes:
 
e57 said:
I've had the same haircut for nearly 2 decades - changing it is not going to help my bad knee. But if I had surgery at the same time - the increased range of motion could be attributed to the haircut.... :rolleyes:
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Yes, you get my point. It really does't matter to me what the customer perceived as being the final cure. Fact is, the work needed done. Some by me, some by the PoCo. Small matter that it was the PoCo that cured the problem that started the service call. The panel needed replaced too. That's not any different than recommending a couple new GFCI's if you're only in a house to hang a new light.
 
I was never suggesting that 'the old panel' was the 'cause' of the high voltage. Its just this panel is OVER crowded, rusted out bottom with water in it. Its a main lug only panel,. so no main disconnect. As stated before, the mast looks like it was alowing water as well but I didnt see any evidence YET.

I can only see this getting worst, and since they are a FRIEND, i really care about what happens to him. Also Im NOT the one who would be doing the work anyways, dont have the time! So no money in my pocket at all. My little bit of troubleshooting was for free.

If you cared about someone would you not look out for their best interest??
 
mdshunk said:
Yes, you get my point. It really does't matter to me what the customer perceived as being the final cure. Fact is, the work needed done. Some by me, some by the PoCo. Small matter that it was the PoCo that cured the problem that started the service call. The panel needed replaced too. That's not any different than recommending a couple new GFCI's if you're only in a house to hang a new light.
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Just my opinion but I think this type action borders on unethical. I think it's fine to tell the HO it could be a dangerous situation and even refuse the work if they don't fix replace the panel. But to allow the HO to think you replacing the panel is the needed repair for the voltage being to high is shady. And it could bring trouble later on.
 
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