Low Voltage commercial installation

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ClearCom

ClearCom

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Branchburg, NJ
First POST!!

Need to get a handle on the proper way to meet code with low voltage wiring above a ceiling grid.
We failed inspection today on a commercial sound installation using a 70v system on 18/2 wire.
None of the wire is currently on the grid. We failed for not securing the wire above the grid the correct way.
We used nylon cable ties to support the wire to areas used to support the ceiling tile uprights.
According to the inspector we cannot use wire ties to support ANY wiring. It is to be used for bundling wire only.
We tried to explain that the weight of the wire will in no way pull down any wire tie. No good.

Is there a clip or tie that we can use to secure the wires that is not a wire tie?

We have done other commercial sound systems and passed doing it this way. We were even complimented on the good job keeping the wire off the grid!!

This is a different town with a new inspector so he needs to bust a few balls first!!
 
Did not ask yet, but I will.

The dropped ceiling is not a plenum and does not require any plenum wire or ties. He just did not like that we used wire ties to attach anything.
 
ClearCom said:
First POST!!

According to the inspector we cannot use wire ties to support ANY wiring. It is to be used for bundling wire only.
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He is wrong if he thinks it's an NEC violation, for example,
320.30 Securing and Supporting
(A) General Type AC cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings, designed and installed so as not to damage the cable.
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this is just one specific allowance for cable ties as support.

Roger
 
If you are talking about the cieling support wires???? Sorry - you got busted... Lesson learned.... In the future make sure you get "Independant Support Wires" in contract, and/or get buddy-buddy with the guy shooting the grid wires up. ;)

See below bold and underlined.

300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place. Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
(1) Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be distinguishable by color, tagging, or other effective means from those that are part of the fire-rated design.
Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly.
(2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided.
Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.
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Or if you wanna cheat, say that the wires you are on, are addition to the support wires - half the time they can not tell which is which after installed... :rolleyes: As they need to be secured at both ends they look the same... But in a fire rated cieling they need to be marked...
 
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roger said:
He is wrong if he thinks it's an NEC violation, for example, this is just one specific allowance for cable ties as support.

Roger
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Thanks for the reply. There seems to be a lot of information in different areas of code. One say its OK to use cable ties, and the other is not specific to what is allowed.
We are way off the ceiling grid. We placed the wire ties through the eyelet attached to the upper ceiling. The ties are not even tight. They are looped to provide a "raceway" of sorts and dropped to each speaker.
We are also doing a phone system the uses 22/2 and is also secured the same way.
The part that burns me is that the last 20 commercial installations have all passed inspection and all were secured the same exact way!:mad:

320.30 you mention "General type AC cable". What does that mean?
 
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ClearCom said:
Thanks for the reply. There seems to be a lot of information in different areas of code. One say its OK to use cable ties, and the other is not specific to what is allowed.
We are way off the ceiling grid. We placed the wire ties through the eyelet attached to the upper ceiling. The ties are not even tight. They are looped to provide a "raceway" of sorts and dropped to each speaker.
We are also doing a phone system the uses 22/2 and is also secured the same way.
The part that burns me is that the last 20 commercial installations have all passed inspection and all were secured the same exact way!:mad:

320.30 you mention "General type AC cable". What does that mean?
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ClearCom,

Are the said eyelet also being used to support the ceiling grid?
 
ClearCom said:
~We placed the wire ties through the eyelet attached to the upper ceiling. ~

The part that burns me is that the last 20 commercial installations have all passed inspection and all were secured the same exact way!:mad:
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Is the eyelet supporting the cieling? Feel lucky you didn't get busted before... I have had words with a few LV guys in the past who have made me fail MY inspection for THEIR work... As well as with other trades when I either steal their supports, or they steal mine.... :D That said, years ago you could do that, support whatever from where ever... The thing is, is that this "independant support" is actually duplicated in a/from a building code somewhere from what I understand, that pre-dates it inception into the NEC around '93 or '96?
 
ClearCom, AC is for Armored Cable (article 320) and cable ties are fine for supporting cables, the problem is the ceiling assembly being used for support. The inspector has cited incorrectly if he based his rejection of the installation on the cable ties.

Roger
 
I've fought and lost these kinds of battles before with varous inspectors. I've learned that there's the quick and easy way and the right way. You're really better off building your own pathway even if it's just for one wire. There are lots of products out there that can screw directly to wood or clip onto metal and are relatively cheap.

Sure it may be a little more work to build your own pathway, but in the end your quality of work will be better and you won't fail inspections, both of which will help your reputation.
 
How does 300.11 apply to an Article 725 installation?
725.3 Other Articles
Circuits and equipment shall comply with the articles or sections listed in 725.3(A) through 725.3(G). Only those sections of Article 300 referenced in this article shall apply to Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3 circuits.
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The only reference to 300.11 in Article 725 is to 300.11(B)(2) to permit a raceway to support a low voltage conductor in some cases.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
How does 300.11 apply to an Article 725 installation?

The only reference to 300.11 in Article 725 is to 300.11(B)(2) to permit a raceway to support a low voltage conductor in some cases.
Don
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Just to start with:

725.25 "Class 1 circuits shall be installed in accordance with Part 1 of Article 300 and with the wiring methods from the appropriate articles in Chapter 3."
 
Memnon said:
There are lots of products out there that can screw directly to wood or clip onto metal and are relatively cheap.

Sure it may be a little more work to build your own pathway, but in the end your quality of work will be better and you won't fail inspections, both of which will help your reputation.
Click to expand...


Next time I'm there I'll take a few photos to post.
We did not rush this job, or cut any corners by using tie wraps. We assumed, incorrectly, that it was THE acceptable way since we passed every other inspection.
One inspector even complimented our work at a fitness club that had about 35 speakers. All wiring was off the grid and tie wrapped to the same eyelet that held the ceiling grid.
I really think that since he is new he needs to flex some muscles to make his reputation known around town.
We plan to install whatever it takes to pass. We value our already solid reputation around our area.
 
Michael,
725.25 "Class 1 circuits shall be installed in accordance with Part 1 of Article 300 and with the wiring methods from the appropriate articles in Chapter 3."
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Do we have a Class 1 circuit in this case?
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Michael,

Do we have a Class 1 circuit in this case?
Don
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Don,

There is also some mention of installment requirements of Class 2 & Class 3 to be installed in accordance with Chapter 1 - Chapter 4 in 725.51.

I do not have a strong position one way or another on this subject, but I do think to have separate supports for all the low voltage wires is a good idea.

Michael
 
Michael,
There is also some mention of installment requirements of Class 2 & Class 3 to be installed in accordance with Chapter 1 - Chapter 4 in 725.51.
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That section only applies to the supply side of the Class 2 or 3 system.
725.51 Wiring Methods on Supply Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source
Conductors and equipment on the supply side of the power source shall be installed in accordance with the appropriate requirements of Chapters 1 through 4. Transformers or other devices supplied from electric light or power circuits shall be protected by an overcurrent device rated not over 20 amperes.
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Don
 
When using the bridle rings, can we use a wire tie to secure the wire from drooping between rings?

I guess as with anything, the inspector on site has the jurisdiction to decide whatever he wants.:roll:
 
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