Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
- Thread starter schalliol
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hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
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- EC
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Every general-use dimmer I ever installed was marked "For permanently installed incandescent lamps only". Using this type of dimmer for portable lamps has always violated 110-3(b). 404.14(e) repeats requirements that have been in the UL Whitebook for years.
Agreed, at least until Lutron obtained a listing for this receptacle. This now ALLOWS portable lamps to be used so this blanket statement goes out the window. The basis for this listing is SIMPLY that the receptacle does not allow insertion of a standard plug. This can be (and always could be) accomplished with other standard receptacles. Whatever argument that Lutron used to obtain a listing for their device would hold for any other that functioned the same.
Though I'm not even sure that this requires a listing I see no reason that Leviton, Hubbell, and P&S couldn't have their existing 15 and 20A twistlocks (for example) similarly listed to make everybody happy.
Since it's obvious UL threw in the towel on this maybe revising 404.14(E) to allow the connection of portable lamps under certain circumstances is the better way to go.
-Hal
[ November 30, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
Every general-use dimmer I ever installed was marked "For permanently installed incandescent lamps only". Using this type of dimmer for portable lamps has always violated 110-3(b). 404.14(e) repeats requirements that have been in the UL Whitebook for years.
Agreed, at least until Lutron obtained a listing for this receptacle. This now ALLOWS portable lamps to be used so this blanket statement goes out the window. The basis for this listing is SIMPLY that the receptacle does not allow insertion of a standard plug. This can be (and always could be) accomplished with other standard receptacles. Whatever argument that Lutron used to obtain a listing for their device would hold for any other that functioned the same.
Though I'm not even sure that this requires a listing I see no reason that Leviton, Hubbell, and P&S couldn't have their existing 15 and 20A twistlocks (for example) similarly listed to make everybody happy.
Since it's obvious UL threw in the towel on this maybe revising 404.14(E) to allow the connection of portable lamps under certain circumstances is the better way to go.
-Hal
[ November 30, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
peter d
Senior Member
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- New England
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
This may be Lutron's attempt to capitalize on the millions of switched receptacles installed in millions of tract homes across America.
I still see it as a dust collector at any rate, unless the price is reasonable. Knowing Lutron's specialty products, that won't be the case. :roll:
[ November 30, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
This may be Lutron's attempt to capitalize on the millions of switched receptacles installed in millions of tract homes across America.
I still see it as a dust collector at any rate, unless the price is reasonable. Knowing Lutron's specialty products, that won't be the case. :roll:
[ November 30, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
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- Boston, MA
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- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Hal, I see your logic on the track lighting but I don't know if I am convinced that a completely installed track and heads would not be considered a permanently installed luminaire. I would have to see in writing where the line is drawn. As far as the lamp dimming goes exactly where are all these people clamoring for lamp dimmers? Ten years in business and have been asked for this maybe 5 times. I am all for new products and technology I just don't know if there is a huge need for this. It seems that Lutron's marketing lately is throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. Anybody ever use the "Quoto" dimmers and switches? Nothing against Lutron , I am "Factory trained" and I use their dimmers almost daily.
Hal, I see your logic on the track lighting but I don't know if I am convinced that a completely installed track and heads would not be considered a permanently installed luminaire. I would have to see in writing where the line is drawn. As far as the lamp dimming goes exactly where are all these people clamoring for lamp dimmers? Ten years in business and have been asked for this maybe 5 times. I am all for new products and technology I just don't know if there is a huge need for this. It seems that Lutron's marketing lately is throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. Anybody ever use the "Quoto" dimmers and switches? Nothing against Lutron , I am "Factory trained" and I use their dimmers almost daily.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Thanks hbiss, I think it will be interesting to see what may evolve here. What I would LOVE to see is a new style plug that could go into a standard receptacle and a lighting only receptacle, but only those plugs could go into the lighting receptacle. This way, companies could start producing lamps with this receptacle and be backwards compatable with the standard setup for the 99% of homes that would only have the standard setup (at least initially). It would prevent people from plugging their toaster into the outlet, but still allow the lamps to use the old. Maybe the Lutron plug does this, but I haven't seen any mention of it.
Thanks hbiss, I think it will be interesting to see what may evolve here. What I would LOVE to see is a new style plug that could go into a standard receptacle and a lighting only receptacle, but only those plugs could go into the lighting receptacle. This way, companies could start producing lamps with this receptacle and be backwards compatable with the standard setup for the 99% of homes that would only have the standard setup (at least initially). It would prevent people from plugging their toaster into the outlet, but still allow the lamps to use the old. Maybe the Lutron plug does this, but I haven't seen any mention of it.
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Yes, the Lutron plug will do that and you make a good point. My main objection to this whole thing is that it is a proprietary design and Lutron probably has it patented up the wazoo. This means that there is likely little chance of the design and maybe even the concept being used by other manufacturers because they will have to pay Lutron $$$$.
If there is a demand for portable lamps connected to dimmers it would have been better if the NEC was revised to allow the installation if non-interchangeable plugs and receptacles are used. This requirement appears in other parts of the Code where it relates to different voltages, systems and frequencies and this is no different. If there was a high enough demand eventually it would result in another NEMA configuration that any manufacturer could utilize. Then you would see lamp cords with these plugs.
-Hal
Yes, the Lutron plug will do that and you make a good point. My main objection to this whole thing is that it is a proprietary design and Lutron probably has it patented up the wazoo. This means that there is likely little chance of the design and maybe even the concept being used by other manufacturers because they will have to pay Lutron $$$$.
If there is a demand for portable lamps connected to dimmers it would have been better if the NEC was revised to allow the installation if non-interchangeable plugs and receptacles are used. This requirement appears in other parts of the Code where it relates to different voltages, systems and frequencies and this is no different. If there was a high enough demand eventually it would result in another NEMA configuration that any manufacturer could utilize. Then you would see lamp cords with these plugs.
-Hal
hurk27
Senior Member
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- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Just think of all the call backs every time the room get's rearrange. Or do you locate one of these receptacles next to every regular receptacle? Sounds like a way to make a permanent customer.
Just think of all the call backs every time the room get's rearrange. Or do you locate one of these receptacles next to every regular receptacle? Sounds like a way to make a permanent customer.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
BTW, they now offer a half version as well, and I've installed a couple of them. They work like a charm, and you don't need one more receptacle to meet requirements if you use a split design. Furthermore, with regards to the Spacer System's abscence from the UL approved list was "Ian oversight on Lutron's part."
BTW, they now offer a half version as well, and I've installed a couple of them. They work like a charm, and you don't need one more receptacle to meet requirements if you use a split design. Furthermore, with regards to the Spacer System's abscence from the UL approved list was "Ian oversight on Lutron's part."
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
I'm still not convinced it's a very worthwhile product for anything but the most high end installations.
[ March 09, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
Out of curiosity, what do these systems cost?
I'm still not convinced it's a very worthwhile product for anything but the most high end installations.
[ March 09, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
The half or full versions of the receptacle I bought in low quantities from a reseller were $24 each, and the plugs are $12 each. You may be able to get a better deal though. Yes, I'd agree that these are only a good idea for lighting control systems, especially at these prices. The receptacle was good to work with. It appeared to be made by Cooper, or at least parts of it did.
The half or full versions of the receptacle I bought in low quantities from a reseller were $24 each, and the plugs are $12 each. You may be able to get a better deal though. Yes, I'd agree that these are only a good idea for lighting control systems, especially at these prices. The receptacle was good to work with. It appeared to be made by Cooper, or at least parts of it did.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
What if I want to dim table lamps in a restaurant, bar, or ballroom? I definitely do not want the customers to be fooling with a dimmer in the cord not to mention that dimmers get hot.
I can see all kinds of applications for this special plug configuration.
What if I want to dim table lamps in a restaurant, bar, or ballroom? I definitely do not want the customers to be fooling with a dimmer in the cord not to mention that dimmers get hot.
I can see all kinds of applications for this special plug configuration.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
Just about every theatrical 120 volt fixture is hooked up with a locking receptacle that is downstream of the dimming panel. As long as the receptacle configuration is unique for dimmable devices, there should not be a problem.
I would not use the split normal/dimmable recptacles for quite a few reasons:
1. You need a 2 gang box for the wire fill unless only cable is going in. Some places have also outlawed 15 amp wiring which makes the wire fill worse.
2. Triple taps cost money.
3. Triple taps look like h#!! and make people think that the wiring is overloaded.
Just about every theatrical 120 volt fixture is hooked up with a locking receptacle that is downstream of the dimming panel. As long as the receptacle configuration is unique for dimmable devices, there should not be a problem.
I would not use the split normal/dimmable recptacles for quite a few reasons:
1. You need a 2 gang box for the wire fill unless only cable is going in. Some places have also outlawed 15 amp wiring which makes the wire fill worse.
2. Triple taps cost money.
3. Triple taps look like h#!! and make people think that the wiring is overloaded.
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
If you're curious, here's a link of an install I did with this equipment: Schalliol Lighting Install
If you're curious, here's a link of an install I did with this equipment: Schalliol Lighting Install
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Lutron Fixes 404.14(E) Problems!
That Lutron receptacle is very funny looking. A receptacle with a nose!!!
Very nice pics.
That Lutron receptacle is very funny looking. A receptacle with a nose!!!
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