Are LV 12VDC halogen lights allowed to be installed inside a wood cabinet with a door, or inside a wood cabinet, and recessed at all. Or do they have to be externally mounted on the wood cabinet surface due to heat build up. We are specifically in PBC, FL. (we are in process of obtaining the NEC book.
LV 12VDC Halogen lights
- Thread starter pstefani
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
The NEC requires the fixtures to be used as intended.
So that question has to be answered by the manufacturer.
For example some fixtures will be labeled 'surface mount only'.
So that question has to be answered by the manufacturer.
For example some fixtures will be labeled 'surface mount only'.
LV halgen reply
LV halgen reply
We install them as per the mfr. recom., we're just wondering if they are only allowed on the outside of a cabinet? The mnfr. makes both recessed and ext. mtd. types. Do you know of any restrictions regarding the lights placed inside a cabinet with a door?
LV halgen reply
We install them as per the mfr. recom., we're just wondering if they are only allowed on the outside of a cabinet? The mnfr. makes both recessed and ext. mtd. types. Do you know of any restrictions regarding the lights placed inside a cabinet with a door?
JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
Are these the small "puck" lights? (Look like a small hockey puck) I have seen them inside a cabinet, but have never installed them inside, just underneath. I have not heard of problems, which doesn't mean much. You might check with the manufactuer
allenwayne
Senior Member
Some can also be flush or surface mounted .I personally always have the cabinet people cut the required hole for the puck light when flush mounted.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Usually if there is a problem with this type of installation, the manufacturer instructions state it clearly.
Lights in cabinets
Lights in cabinets
Thank yo all for the replies. Here is a brief "feads up" for everyone in this area. We just were informed by the PBC inspector that Halogen and LED lights are acceptable to be installed inside cabinets with or without doors, externally or flush mounted. But... if the cabinet installers are the ones doing the install, they have to be UL certified installers of UL listed equipments. Lately they have had many home installs that were not to code, so they elected to require only installs by UL certified installers, or by a licensed electricians with permits. If you install the lights without either of these two conditions you will most likely not pass an inspection and have to pull it all out and start over with an electrician. Not all counties are this strict, but it's seems to be a precedence that might catch on. Thanks again to all. Pete Stefani
Lights in cabinets
Thank yo all for the replies. Here is a brief "feads up" for everyone in this area. We just were informed by the PBC inspector that Halogen and LED lights are acceptable to be installed inside cabinets with or without doors, externally or flush mounted. But... if the cabinet installers are the ones doing the install, they have to be UL certified installers of UL listed equipments. Lately they have had many home installs that were not to code, so they elected to require only installs by UL certified installers, or by a licensed electricians with permits. If you install the lights without either of these two conditions you will most likely not pass an inspection and have to pull it all out and start over with an electrician. Not all counties are this strict, but it's seems to be a precedence that might catch on. Thanks again to all. Pete Stefani
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
What is a "UL-certified installer"? Do they list people now too? 
Quite the precedent, indeed.
Quite the precedent, indeed.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Many of the custom kitchen cabinets come from the cabinetmaker with these lights already installed,just a whip coming out the top of the cabinet.We wire them into the trans supplied and a switch leg.How can an inspector require the cabinetmaker to be a ul listed installer.
jjhoward
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern NJ
- Occupation
- Owner TJ Electric
RE: the concern with heat.
Most undercabinet puck lights I have seen instruct you to drill a small hole through the shelf at the site where the light will be installed.
I assume that is to allow some air flow to minimize the heat buildup.
Most undercabinet puck lights I have seen instruct you to drill a small hole through the shelf at the site where the light will be installed.
I assume that is to allow some air flow to minimize the heat buildup.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
jjhoward said:
Why? So i can put a dish on top of the hole?
Pstefani,
If these are the MR16 types that require an AC adapter, the concern will be where to plug in the fixture cable and route the secondary wiring to the lamps. Also check the service life of those halogens in close quarter lighting conditions as the lamps function at high temperatures and have a reduced mainenance life. I have (3) 50w 12vdc pucks in kitchen undercounter applications that are seldom used, but after three years they still are intact. That is because of the adjacent (2) 7w CFL lamps that put out more diffused lumens than the MR16 directionals. Running the AC wiring pathway will be the biggest code compliant safety concern at the most. Happy New Year
If these are the MR16 types that require an AC adapter, the concern will be where to plug in the fixture cable and route the secondary wiring to the lamps. Also check the service life of those halogens in close quarter lighting conditions as the lamps function at high temperatures and have a reduced mainenance life. I have (3) 50w 12vdc pucks in kitchen undercounter applications that are seldom used, but after three years they still are intact. That is because of the adjacent (2) 7w CFL lamps that put out more diffused lumens than the MR16 directionals. Running the AC wiring pathway will be the biggest code compliant safety concern at the most. Happy New Year
Last edited:
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
To Puck it or not
To Puck it or not
Here in Durham, NC the puck lights are allowed to be installed as long as the wiring and lights are not concealed. The wiring method for those lights would have to be installed according to article 300 (Article 411.4A) Obviously that poses a problem. This also means that there would need to be a termination in a JB. We use to run the low voltage wiring in the recess under the upper cabinet and the cabinet dude would put a finished board on the bottom to hide it. I had to rip it all out. I was told I had to terminate the wires in a JB and use 14/2 to feed it from the transformer since the wire was concealed. Most pucks that ain't going to happen.
To Puck it or not
Here in Durham, NC the puck lights are allowed to be installed as long as the wiring and lights are not concealed. The wiring method for those lights would have to be installed according to article 300 (Article 411.4A) Obviously that poses a problem. This also means that there would need to be a termination in a JB. We use to run the low voltage wiring in the recess under the upper cabinet and the cabinet dude would put a finished board on the bottom to hide it. I had to rip it all out. I was told I had to terminate the wires in a JB and use 14/2 to feed it from the transformer since the wire was concealed. Most pucks that ain't going to happen.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
allenwayne said:
As an inspector who "approves" electrical installations, I always look for some kind of label on the electrical equipment being installed. If the kitchen cabinet installer/manufacturer has a product that includes electrical equipment of some kind, I definitely would like to see that someone other than the "maker" of this equipment looked at this factory install...otherwise my approval may not be forth coming.
3 weeks ago, an EC called me to take a look at a hoodfan they had on the job. The EC had called the manufacturer with some questions and the answers he got raised a red flag to him. Needless to say, the unit was not labeled, and the installation instructions were contrary to the NEC. The homeowner had purchased this hoodfan for big$$$$, and was unhappy to return it...the manufacturer called our office and put up very little argument when I asked why they had not had the unit tested and labeled.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Is a hood fan required to be listed?
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Bob
Happy New Year to start!!!
Now to get down and dirty... I have my sleeves rolled up... you better watch out! just kidding:smile:
Not that I require all products to be listed, it is a lot easier to approve an installation when there is some type of label to help guide me. Notice in my post prior to yours, that I said "otherwise my approval may not", that does not mean it won't. I need to feel that the installation is going to be safe. Remember as an inspector, we see many more jobs per day than the average electrician. With that being said, we also see much more equipment these days that is custom and not listed... so our judgement becomes much more involved. I can tell you there are days when I am not sure... so I ask questions... alot of times those same questions are posted here by someone else.
Happy New Year to start!!!
Now to get down and dirty... I have my sleeves rolled up... you better watch out! just kidding:smile:
Not that I require all products to be listed, it is a lot easier to approve an installation when there is some type of label to help guide me. Notice in my post prior to yours, that I said "otherwise my approval may not", that does not mean it won't. I need to feel that the installation is going to be safe. Remember as an inspector, we see many more jobs per day than the average electrician. With that being said, we also see much more equipment these days that is custom and not listed... so our judgement becomes much more involved. I can tell you there are days when I am not sure... so I ask questions... alot of times those same questions are posted here by someone else.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Happy New year.
I understand and thanks for the frank answer.
I did catch the 'may' part of your post and that certainly fits in 90.4 if you are the AHJ.
You said you rolled up your sleeves.
For the sake of casual conversation, how is it fair to either the HO or EC that you shoot it down but another inspector may allow it. For the uniformity of enforcement would it not make more sense for the AHJ to make a standard decision on this issue?
It is interesting to note that NEMA motors are not generally UL listed.
I understand and thanks for the frank answer.
I did catch the 'may' part of your post and that certainly fits in 90.4 if you are the AHJ.
You said you rolled up your sleeves.
For the sake of casual conversation, how is it fair to either the HO or EC that you shoot it down but another inspector may allow it. For the uniformity of enforcement would it not make more sense for the AHJ to make a standard decision on this issue?
It is interesting to note that NEMA motors are not generally UL listed.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Bob
First off as we all have heard, life is not necessarily fair...
I always give the customer the option of going over my head when I do make a decision about a piece of equipment or a decision they do not like. I have the information necessary for them to do this... actually I sometimes prefer that the decision is out of my hands and does not require my signature.
Remember Bob that we inspectors sometimes have to make very unpopular decisions. We are not perfect. I always try to work with a customer to help, especially when the circumstances involve time lost on a job or money or possible embarrassment.
In my example above, I worked with the contractor and the homeowner trying to make the equipment work...in the end it came down to the manufacturer and his information that actually helped the homeowner to decide to get another hood. Also try to remember that all details of such events are hard to post, otherwise my lengthy posts would be more boring than they are already
First off as we all have heard, life is not necessarily fair...
I always give the customer the option of going over my head when I do make a decision about a piece of equipment or a decision they do not like. I have the information necessary for them to do this... actually I sometimes prefer that the decision is out of my hands and does not require my signature.
Remember Bob that we inspectors sometimes have to make very unpopular decisions. We are not perfect. I always try to work with a customer to help, especially when the circumstances involve time lost on a job or money or possible embarrassment.
In my example above, I worked with the contractor and the homeowner trying to make the equipment work...in the end it came down to the manufacturer and his information that actually helped the homeowner to decide to get another hood. Also try to remember that all details of such events are hard to post, otherwise my lengthy posts would be more boring than they are already
Hi Bob, Good question for residential high end channeled hoods. The fan and speed controls are UL1917 and UL507 but no hood. Commercial cooking hood ventillation systems are listed under UL705 so some of those high-end Broans that run 500 cfm or better may fall under UL705. I don't know if the hood housing venting is tested for any particular grease trap conditions or Fire code regulations.
Just using vaulted ceiling over kitchen cooking areas is a residential design challenge that does require hood coverage over fired cook tops, but height distance over the work surfaces doesn't seem to be regulated in the installs I worked on in the past. Running the power leg down the hood channel is required to be in a metal raceway outside the duct.
So I hope this is a fair answer to what you questioned.
Just using vaulted ceiling over kitchen cooking areas is a residential design challenge that does require hood coverage over fired cook tops, but height distance over the work surfaces doesn't seem to be regulated in the installs I worked on in the past. Running the power leg down the hood channel is required to be in a metal raceway outside the duct.
So I hope this is a fair answer to what you questioned.
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