joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Do you have an opinion? Is this panel designed to be backfed?
Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
- Thread starter joe tedesco
- Start date
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
I don't know about the panelboard design, but I believe the "main" breaker does not meets the requirement of 408.16(F)
I don't know about the panelboard design, but I believe the "main" breaker does not meets the requirement of 408.16(F)
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Bryan:
That's true but this panelboard is probably over 50 years old, and the rule was added in the NEC in the early 90's?
I believe that this equipment was not designed to be used in this manner, and should have been protected ahead of the line.
This is the type of question that is asked by a Home Inspector who seems to come across many of these panels in the Southern California Area. I am trying to find out if anyone can supply the facts.
Bryan:
That's true but this panelboard is probably over 50 years old, and the rule was added in the NEC in the early 90's?
I believe that this equipment was not designed to be used in this manner, and should have been protected ahead of the line.
This is the type of question that is asked by a Home Inspector who seems to come across many of these panels in the Southern California Area. I am trying to find out if anyone can supply the facts.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Joe
As you said this is an old installation, and was most likely compliant at the time of installation. Without the paperwork it would be hard to tell if this manufacturer intended for it to be installed in this manner.
Just an observation, look how few grounded conductors there are.
Pierre
Joe
As you said this is an old installation, and was most likely compliant at the time of installation. Without the paperwork it would be hard to tell if this manufacturer intended for it to be installed in this manner.
Just an observation, look how few grounded conductors there are.
Pierre
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Most Zinco panel's I have seen were like this. Have you ever tried to remove a Zinco two ploe breaker, you almost have to pry one out. I would be more worryed about wether or not it would trip when a fault occured. Hence the name "No Blow Zinco"
[ June 05, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
Most Zinco panel's I have seen were like this. Have you ever tried to remove a Zinco two ploe breaker, you almost have to pry one out. I would be more worryed about wether or not it would trip when a fault occured. Hence the name "No Blow Zinco"
[ June 05, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
It would be interesting to read about its listing. It could have been listed for either type of installation at the time. I am also interested in knowing if it had an inspection sticker on the cover. Joe and I are both old enough to see some strange things.
It would be interesting to read about its listing. It could have been listed for either type of installation at the time. I am also interested in knowing if it had an inspection sticker on the cover. Joe and I are both old enough to see some strange things.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
What's an inspection sticker, for that matter what is a red tag?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
I have a problem with the idea of "compliant at the time installation" in some situations.
If I have to perform work in the panel above, I consider the installation a potential hazard that needs to be corrected even though it was not an issue 50 years ago.
If I am not performing work in the panel, but somewhere else on the occupancy or structure, I would make a note of the hazard and provide a comment of correction on any billing or paperwork. Just my opinion.
I have a problem with the idea of "compliant at the time installation" in some situations.
If I have to perform work in the panel above, I consider the installation a potential hazard that needs to be corrected even though it was not an issue 50 years ago.
If I am not performing work in the panel, but somewhere else on the occupancy or structure, I would make a note of the hazard and provide a comment of correction on any billing or paperwork. Just my opinion.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
As long as you are not exceeding the rating what is the difference?
Assuming a secured back fed OCPD can anyone give an example of a panel that can not legally be back fed?
I have never even considered if a panel was "designed to be backfed".
As long as you are not exceeding the rating what is the difference?
Assuming a secured back fed OCPD can anyone give an example of a panel that can not legally be back fed?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
I'm surprised at the condition of this panel. for a Zinco panel to be in this good of shape it had to be in a very low moisture environment. Most main lug panels I have seen are listed to be back fed. and most manufactures have a main breaker retainer to comply with 408.16(F) available
This 12 space panel was also listed for up to 24 OCPD's with the use of half space breakers. The one good design of a Zinco panel is when you use a half space breaker each handle is still on a differant phase. they even made half space double pole breakers. I would say this panel dates early "50's" to early "60's" I have seen a few that had even a GFCI in them. Many pedestal meter/mains had the Zinco pan in them I think Midwest used them for a while.
I'm surprised at the condition of this panel. for a Zinco panel to be in this good of shape it had to be in a very low moisture environment. Most main lug panels I have seen are listed to be back fed. and most manufactures have a main breaker retainer to comply with 408.16(F) available
This 12 space panel was also listed for up to 24 OCPD's with the use of half space breakers. The one good design of a Zinco panel is when you use a half space breaker each handle is still on a differant phase. they even made half space double pole breakers. I would say this panel dates early "50's" to early "60's" I have seen a few that had even a GFCI in them. Many pedestal meter/mains had the Zinco pan in them I think Midwest used them for a while.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Originally posted by iwire:
Assuming a secured back fed OCPD can anyone give an example of a panel that can not legally be back fed?
Todd
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Morning Todd, I agree if the backfed breaker can not be secured then we can not back feed the panel.
I was asking about a panel you could secure the breaker.
How about a main breaker panel that also has main lugs?
Can I feed the lugs and use the main to feed another panel?
Morning Todd, I agree if the backfed breaker can not be secured then we can not back feed the panel.
I was asking about a panel you could secure the breaker.
How about a main breaker panel that also has main lugs?
Can I feed the lugs and use the main to feed another panel?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
I think all ITE panel are listed. They have a neet little clip that looks like a red flag and it will install in any panel and on any ITE 100 amp two pole breaker.
I think all ITE panel are listed. They have a neet little clip that looks like a red flag and it will install in any panel and on any ITE 100 amp two pole breaker.
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
Wayne....how DO you get those Zinsco breakers out?? I changed one out last week and brought the old one home to scavenge on my workbench, so far I only got one breaker out, and I broke it removing it. I hardly see the need for a holddown kit!!
Wayne....how DO you get those Zinsco breakers out?? I changed one out last week and brought the old one home to scavenge on my workbench, so far I only got one breaker out, and I broke it removing it. I hardly see the need for a holddown kit!!
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Main Lug Panelboard Back-Fed by Breaker
They have to be removed straight out with out getting them cocked. As I said before they are hard to remove. I use a in-line connector removal tool that has little hooks that will go in between the breaker and grip the bottom of it. it pulls evenly and the breaker come straight out. You can find them at a electronics store.
They have to be removed straight out with out getting them cocked. As I said before they are hard to remove. I use a in-line connector removal tool that has little hooks that will go in between the breaker and grip the bottom of it. it pulls evenly and the breaker come straight out. You can find them at a electronics store.
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