Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
- Thread starter mtn_elec
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Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
I have worked on many panels in such locations, Service upgrades are tricky. The Code established minimum head clearance some time ago 90-93?? Some jurisdictions will accept upgrades where these are existing panels, good argument!!
The Code is not retro and a consensus of existing Vs new difficult.
I have worked on many panels in such locations, Service upgrades are tricky. The Code established minimum head clearance some time ago 90-93?? Some jurisdictions will accept upgrades where these are existing panels, good argument!!
The Code is not retro and a consensus of existing Vs new difficult.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Look at the exception to 110.26(E).
Don
Look at the exception to 110.26(E).
Don
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Yes, the exception does allow this, but it would make me uncomfortable. I would not buy a house that had that situation. Or at least I would include a service replacement in my negotiations to buy the house.
For this specific job, I know that you will have to turn off the service at the meter, in order to do this installation, and that you will have to provide an independent source of lighting to the space. However, I would like to think that any future work, even so simple as adding a circuit with a new breaker, would be done with power shut off at the main (not necessarily at the meter). If the homeowners don?t like having to lose all power for a simple upgrade like this, then they will have to learn to live with it. I don?t do this kind of installation work myself, so my opinion need not carry much weight. But I think it is do dangerous an installation to permit any kind of live work.
Yes, the exception does allow this, but it would make me uncomfortable. I would not buy a house that had that situation. Or at least I would include a service replacement in my negotiations to buy the house.
For this specific job, I know that you will have to turn off the service at the meter, in order to do this installation, and that you will have to provide an independent source of lighting to the space. However, I would like to think that any future work, even so simple as adding a circuit with a new breaker, would be done with power shut off at the main (not necessarily at the meter). If the homeowners don?t like having to lose all power for a simple upgrade like this, then they will have to learn to live with it. I don?t do this kind of installation work myself, so my opinion need not carry much weight. But I think it is do dangerous an installation to permit any kind of live work.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Charlie B your thougths are correct but in older homes these are things that you have to deal with. This stuff comes up all the time. Usually you have to be flexible to find a solution everyone is comfortable with. Which option is better. Upgrade the existing service at same location for say $2000.00. Or Move service to a new location for $4000.00. I know what the homeowner will do 99% of the time. Option 1 or nothing.
Charlie B your thougths are correct but in older homes these are things that you have to deal with. This stuff comes up all the time. Usually you have to be flexible to find a solution everyone is comfortable with. Which option is better. Upgrade the existing service at same location for say $2000.00. Or Move service to a new location for $4000.00. I know what the homeowner will do 99% of the time. Option 1 or nothing.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
$2000 to run from new panel to old with a couple runs of conduit with enough circuits for the old circuits?? If new panel is open to the crawl, the conduit runs could be in romex, even cheaper. i quit too soon. can use old panel as junction box, not panel, without the pickiest inspector or ahj blanching.
paul
$2000 to run from new panel to old with a couple runs of conduit with enough circuits for the old circuits?? If new panel is open to the crawl, the conduit runs could be in romex, even cheaper. i quit too soon. can use old panel as junction box, not panel, without the pickiest inspector or ahj blanching.
paul
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Paul pick any number you want. :roll: The point is it is more work, more material, MORE MONEY. Meter with a disconnect will cost you way more than a standard meter socket. Maybe that is the "Best" way to do it or for the person paying the bill maybe it is not.
Paul pick any number you want. :roll: The point is it is more work, more material, MORE MONEY. Meter with a disconnect will cost you way more than a standard meter socket. Maybe that is the "Best" way to do it or for the person paying the bill maybe it is not.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
I did a lot of them and I almost always found it faster to mount a new panel seperately. here, where it solves two problems, is probably significantly easier and faster, albeit with a modicum of extra material.
It also means the new panel can be inspected for poco switch without significant power/time loss. Most of the work can be done without having to dismantle the old panel and reinstall in the same place, so there is an hour or two doing the last bit, maybe three.
paul
I did a lot of them and I almost always found it faster to mount a new panel seperately. here, where it solves two problems, is probably significantly easier and faster, albeit with a modicum of extra material.
It also means the new panel can be inspected for poco switch without significant power/time loss. Most of the work can be done without having to dismantle the old panel and reinstall in the same place, so there is an hour or two doing the last bit, maybe three.
paul
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Paul how can it be easier and faster? You are now making up a panel at one end and a bunch of splices on the other. You have to get these circuits between the locations. There is no way that relocating a service to a new location will not be longer, harder, and more expensive than simply upgrading in the existing spot.
Paul how can it be easier and faster? You are now making up a panel at one end and a bunch of splices on the other. You have to get these circuits between the locations. There is no way that relocating a service to a new location will not be longer, harder, and more expensive than simply upgrading in the existing spot.
Coastal
Member
- Location
- Kill Devil Hills, NC
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
How can you have 30 inches of working clearance in front of the panel in a crawl space???
I have done many service changes here where the old panel was in a clothes closet. Every inspector from every municipality (and there are quite a few) requires the panel be relocated out of the closet to meet code; which always involves upgrading to 4 wire and disconnect. I usually use the old panel as a junction box and run the circuits to the new panel in conduit through the wall.
[ January 12, 2005, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Coastal ]
How can you have 30 inches of working clearance in front of the panel in a crawl space???
I have done many service changes here where the old panel was in a clothes closet. Every inspector from every municipality (and there are quite a few) requires the panel be relocated out of the closet to meet code; which always involves upgrading to 4 wire and disconnect. I usually use the old panel as a junction box and run the circuits to the new panel in conduit through the wall.
[ January 12, 2005, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Coastal ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
In the end, as Don pointed out, this installation is allowed.
Well, if the panel is mounted to one wall and the opposite wall is 30" away....
In the end, as Don pointed out, this installation is allowed.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Well I finished the installation on the crawling space spoke to the ahj before doing it and he mention exactly what Don said the exception of 110.26(E).But what I do not understand is why Charlie said "However, I would like to think that any future work, even so simple as adding a circuit with a new breaker, would be done with power shut off at the main" Beacause I have installed a Main The job was to upgrade a 100 Amp Service to 200 Amps. Everything of course have been change (Service Cable,Meter Pan,EGC,etc)
Well I finished the installation on the crawling space spoke to the ahj before doing it and he mention exactly what Don said the exception of 110.26(E).But what I do not understand is why Charlie said "However, I would like to think that any future work, even so simple as adding a circuit with a new breaker, would be done with power shut off at the main" Beacause I have installed a Main The job was to upgrade a 100 Amp Service to 200 Amps. Everything of course have been change (Service Cable,Meter Pan,EGC,etc)
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
In regards to relocating a panel, and using the old panel as a junction box, I have a question. While I have seen and utilized the old panel for a J-box, what about when the panel is located in a bathroom. Do the inspectors usually pass this J-Box method when its located in a bathroom?
In regards to relocating a panel, and using the old panel as a junction box, I have a question. While I have seen and utilized the old panel for a J-box, what about when the panel is located in a bathroom. Do the inspectors usually pass this J-Box method when its located in a bathroom?
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
230.70(A)(2) only refers to the service disconnecting means. It doesn't say you can't have a breaker panel, fuse panel, or an old panel use as a J box in the bath room. Just not the main.
230.70(A)(2) only refers to the service disconnecting means. It doesn't say you can't have a breaker panel, fuse panel, or an old panel use as a J box in the bath room. Just not the main.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
230.70(A)(2) is only about the service disconnecting means however 240.24(E) prohibits dwelling unit panels in bathrooms.
230.70(A)(2) is only about the service disconnecting means however 240.24(E) prohibits dwelling unit panels in bathrooms.
There is dust everywhere.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
I was merely suggesting a safety measure: Turn off the main breaker at the panel (having first arranged for temporary lighting in the crawl space), before you open the panel to place the conductors and to add the breaker. I am guessing that that would not be your normal way of doing this type of job. But since there is not much headroom, and since you will likely be on your knees (or stopping over) to do the job, it will be more of a hazard than you normally see. You would not have your usual sense of balance; your hands and feet would not enjoy their normal degree of natural, cooperative stability. I perceive that this would increase, however slightly, the probability of accidentally making contact with a live bus.
What would be worse, if you did contact a live bus, and when you lost control of your muscles, the falling weight of your body might not be able to pull your hands away from the box.
110.26 is all about protecting the worker. If you perform the work on a de-energized panel, the hazard is all but eliminated. If you perform the work live, and if the physical circumstances of the installation are out of the ordinary, then you take a risk that is also out of the ordinary. It would violate my notion of ?nothing is more important than safety,? and you could avoid it by turning off the power before doing the job.
What I was talking about was the next job at that location, the one two years from now, when the homeowner adds a garage or something, and needs a new breaker put into the panel in the crawl space.
I was merely suggesting a safety measure: Turn off the main breaker at the panel (having first arranged for temporary lighting in the crawl space), before you open the panel to place the conductors and to add the breaker. I am guessing that that would not be your normal way of doing this type of job. But since there is not much headroom, and since you will likely be on your knees (or stopping over) to do the job, it will be more of a hazard than you normally see. You would not have your usual sense of balance; your hands and feet would not enjoy their normal degree of natural, cooperative stability. I perceive that this would increase, however slightly, the probability of accidentally making contact with a live bus.
What would be worse, if you did contact a live bus, and when you lost control of your muscles, the falling weight of your body might not be able to pull your hands away from the box.
110.26 is all about protecting the worker. If you perform the work on a de-energized panel, the hazard is all but eliminated. If you perform the work live, and if the physical circumstances of the installation are out of the ordinary, then you take a risk that is also out of the ordinary. It would violate my notion of ?nothing is more important than safety,? and you could avoid it by turning off the power before doing the job.
Re: Main Panel in Crawlling Space?
Scott: sorry for the delay. One of the things happening here in terms of time, is that there is absolutely no dismantle time for the old panel, except removing bus, old feeders, any repair. Old panels with a full load of convenience circuits, not just mimimum, often has to be dismantled quite carefully to not damage the old wires, which need to be reinserted in new panel with some foresight to cable entrance locations. Orten the wiring was short , extra ground or neutral bars had to be added, on and on. All those headaches go away in this situation. There was no mention of the specifics of the meter, whether it needed changing or not, nor of any of the exterior wiring details.
paul
Scott: sorry for the delay. One of the things happening here in terms of time, is that there is absolutely no dismantle time for the old panel, except removing bus, old feeders, any repair. Old panels with a full load of convenience circuits, not just mimimum, often has to be dismantled quite carefully to not damage the old wires, which need to be reinserted in new panel with some foresight to cable entrance locations. Orten the wiring was short , extra ground or neutral bars had to be added, on and on. All those headaches go away in this situation. There was no mention of the specifics of the meter, whether it needed changing or not, nor of any of the exterior wiring details.
paul
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