Maintaining FA system

[Alwayslearningelec]

If there is a existing fire alarm system that is being replaced with a new what is involved if you have to maintain the existing until the new is up and online? Thanks.

 

[macmikeman]

If there is a existing fire alarm system that is being replaced with a new what is involved if you have to maintain the existing until the new is up and online? Thanks.

Liability would be my first thought. Second thought is what size facility? If this is an airport for instance, lots of dispatch calls due to stuff like radio interference on the detectors, and they call your company to take care of it. Could be a full time job, or could be next to no problem at all. Size counts.

 

[MichaelGP3]

What does the AHJ say?

 

[iwire]

If there is a existing fire alarm system that is being replaced with a new what is involved if you have to maintain the existing until the new is up and online? Thanks.

No you do not have to leave the old one up and running. You could close the building or provide a 24/7 fire watch. At least that would be the common way where I am.

When we cut over from an existing FA system to a new FA system on a 15 floor building we had 5 firefighters spread out through the building as long as we had the systems down.

Don't forget it is not just the AHJ that you have to satisfy but also the insurance carrier for the property.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

This is an active psych center. You would have to carry a fire watch 24 hrs a day? No? Can't you just install the new devices( about 350), wiring etc then kind of bring down the old then bring up the new so there is not much down time? Thanks

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Also, when removing the old system if there is fa cable above a hung ceiling can that be left up there or does it have to be removed? I understand the spec may say one thing but I was curious whether it could or couldn't for another reason. Thanks

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We have done some where did a zone at a time. We would take a zone out of service and convert to the new system. All work had to be completed for that zone by the end of the day. Relays were added to permit the old and new systems to "talk" to each other. An alarm in either system would cause all of the indicating devices in both systems to operate. We were not required to provide a fire watch, however if we had failed to compete a zone in the work day, an overnight fire watch would have been required.

 

[satcom]

We have done some where did a zone at a time. We would take a zone out of service and convert to the new system. All work had to be completed for that zone by the end of the day. Relays were added to permit the old and new systems to "talk" to each other. An alarm in either system would cause all of the indicating devices in both systems to operate. We were not required to provide a fire watch, however if we had failed to compete a zone in the work day, an overnight fire watch would have been required.

That is how we have done it, in the high rise jobs.

 

[iwire]

That is how we have done it, in the high rise jobs.

In high rises we cannot shutdown areas without a firewatch, day or night.

 

[iwire]

This is an active psych center. You would have to carry a fire watch 24 hrs a day? No? Can't you just install the new devices( about 350), wiring etc then kind of bring down the old then bring up the new so there is not much down time? Thanks

Yes if we took an entire system off line for days at a time we would have to have a fire watch the entire time.

You have to keep in mind the laws that require fire alarm coverage apply as long as the building has an occupancy permit.

 

[satcom]

In high rises we cannot shutdown areas without a firewatch, day or night.

The fire codes call for a fire watch, if the system is shut down, we keep the system active while we are working, the only problem with that is, the added cost, and not bad for small area fit ups.
There were a number of recent articles on shut down of both alarm and sprinkler systems, in both new construction and demo work, New York City is still working on rules for buildings in demo, and occupied buildings with fit up work.
Fire Engineering has some articles on the latest proposals, some of the fires they had in the old 911 damaged buildings which were under demo, caused them to re think all the rules on fire sprinkler and alarm shut down.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

If your municipality uses the International Fire Code 2009 here is the apprpriate section.

901.7 Systems out of service. Where a required fire protection system is out of service, the fire department and the fire code official shall be notified immediately and, where required by the fire code official, the building shall either be evacuated or an approved fire watch shall be provided for all occupants left unprotected by the shutdown until the fire protection system has been returned to service.

Where utilized, fire watches shall be provided with at least one approved means for notification of the fire department and their only duty shall be to perform constant patrols of the protected premises and keep watch for fires.

 

[satcom]

If your municipality uses the International Fire Code 2009 here is the apprpriate section.

901.7 Systems out of service. Where a required fire protection system is out of service, the fire department and the fire code official shall be notified immediately and, where required by the fire code official, the building shall either be evacuated or an approved fire watch shall be provided for all occupants left unprotected by the shutdown until the fire protection system has been returned to service.

Where utilized, fire watches shall be provided with at least one approved means for notification of the fire department and their only duty shall be to perform constant patrols of the protected premises and keep watch for fires.

Rick, we see many cases, where the contractor will start the work, without the fire official being notified, but anytime you shut down a system they need to be contacted, before work starts, and any permits should also be in place, our insurance for fire work requires an annual application, which is 26 pages or more, and reviews every procedure, for both waterflow, and alarm systems and any other life safety equipment or system work we do, they also require the number of devices, and type of system be reported on the applications, nothing like electrical work.

 

[nhfire77]

I have done this a few times:

Install the new system, commission it completely, get a final inspection, then immediately kill the power to the old one and begin demoing it.

Of course areas under construction that have to be demoed will have devices removed, but that's OK its not occupied.

Caveat: Not all AHJ's are ok with this.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Ok, so if the complete exisitong system is being replaced by a new the extg can stay until the new is in an online then the old can come our. Is that one option? Also, does all the fa wire have to come our or can in be left up in the ceiling? Thanks

 

[Volta]

Ok, so if the complete exisitong system is being replaced by a new the extg can stay until the new is in an online then the old can come our. Is that one option? Also, does all the fa wire have to come our or can in be left up in the ceiling? Thanks

But to do that fully you would need to place the devices in new locations while the old are in use. Then when you remove the old there may be some aesthetic criticism. Not the best option, but maybe accepted.

If you can remove the old cables, you have to 760.25.

 

[nhfire77]

But to do that fully you would need to place the devices in new locations while the old are in use. Then when you remove the old there may be some aesthetic criticism. Not the best option, but maybe accepted.

If you can remove the old cables, you have to 760.25.

Agreed. The job I spoke of was with 100%ceiling tiles and it was understood the drywallers and painters would have to patch and paint some things.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Ok, there are removal drawings that show these devices being taken out and the new drawings have devices in different location. So I would say there would have to be some patching/painting(by others). Agreed? Thanks.