Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

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Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Good night JW,

While your description
If it was a three way three wire dead end switch current would be going and coming in same cable or two conductors hot at the same time. If it was fed through then the neutral would be present for the return current.
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is absolutely correct when the conductors of the same circuit at present in the NM cable that we are not talking about.

What we are talking about, is when the conductors of the same circuit are in different NM cables as allowed by 300.3(B)(3).

300.3(B)(3) is not exclusively about cables with only one conductor in them, . . . it is also about cables with multiple conductors of which at least one conductor is part of a circuit that is also running in another cable.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

300.3(B)(3) permits this install as long as it complies with 300.20(B)

MEANING :

If the wiring method being used is a single conductor you MUST either (1) cut the metal.......or (2) pass all the conductors through an insulating wall....

***At this time you would count the number of conductors and decide if it's 1 or more.***

Then...

If there ARE more than 1 there is NO need to (1) "cut" or (2) "pass".

Installation complies to 300.3(B), 300.3(B)(3), & of course 300.20(B)


Dave
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Edit: Scratch that. I misunderstood the misunderstanding, and my statement would fuzzy it up worse. :roll:

[ April 05, 2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Dave,
***At this time you would count the number of conductors and decide if it's 1 or more.***
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Please pardon me while I attempt to pound this into the ground. . .I would add these words,
***At this time you would count the number of conductors of the same circuit and decide if it's 1 or more.***
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The bottom line, walt763's install is NEC compliant.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Originally posted by jwelectric:
He is installing a cable assembly with multi conductors therefore they SHALL BE in the same cable or raceway.
:)
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JW, see 404.2(A). Not only is there a distinction drawn between metal raceways and cables, but there is an exception stating that switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor.

In fact, he can present 404.2, exception to his inspector to bolster his case. A two-wire threeway, while ill-advised, is still legal by NEC, under conditions. ;)
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

404.2 Switch Connections.

(A) Three-Way and Four-Way Switches. Three-way and four-way switches shall be wired so that all switching is done only in the ungrounded circuit conductor. Where in metal raceways or metal-armored cables, wiring between switches and outlets shall be in accordance with 300.20(A).

Exception: Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor.
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And there's 300.20 but it only references the raceway. . .and again, this is NM cable, not a raceway or metal armored cable, so the reference to 300.20(A) falls away and we go back to 300.3(B)(3) for 300.20(B) to tell us to cut up ferrous enclosures in a manner to reduce eddy currents (if the boxes are metal).

[ April 06, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

I rule in favor of the defendant, walt763...And hereby sentence his inspector to study Article 300.3 AND to clean up all of Walt's wire scraps on the next job!

:D

Dave
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

One time I ran TWO 12/3 NM cables to produce the equivalent of 12/6 cable. I had to cut slots between the two holes in the metal boxes at each end.

The run consisted of 4 traveler wires, 1 hot, 1 neutral, and at least 1 equipment ground wire. This was for 3-ways for light fixtures in both the kitchen and dinging room. Running EMT in a wood frame structure requires notching of wood which weakens the wood. Pulling wire through greenfield is lke using a canoe as a surf board. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit is almost as bad. Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit has a very high coefficient of friction such that wire pulling lubricant is needed to push the fish tape through.

There is just not a really good solution when you need 4 to 9 wires betwwen 2 boxes in a wood frame building unless the run is short enough that you do not need a lot of conduit.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Now you are trying to defend your statement by saying that 404.2 refers to 300.20 (A) but this isn?t right ?because?
There is no mention in 404.2 of 300.2 (B) so lets don?t add it there.

I see no reference in 404.2 to the fact that ?if I decide to install a bunch of cables that I can cut up a metal box? or a reference to that fact

I did see a reference to the fact that ?all phase conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be grouped together.?

Convince me you are right but do it by code article and section that states the conductors can be installed in separate cable or raceway not how to install single conductors in a box.
:)
PS Good Morning
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Convince me you are right but do it by code article and section that states the conductors can be installed in separate cable or raceway
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A number of us have.

The code section is 300.3(B)(3).

Tha basic rule of 300.3(B) is all conductors of the same circuit will be togerther.

300.3 Conductors.

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4)
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But 300.3(B)(3) releases us from the general rule of 300.3(B) for non-ferris wiring methods.


300.3(B)(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B). Conductors in single-conductor Type MI cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 332.31. Conductors of single-conductor?type MC cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 330.31, 330.116, and 300.20(B).
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(2002 NEC)

JW you do not have to like it or install your cables that way.

It is however a black and white code issue.

Using NM you do not always have to keep all the conductors of a circuit together, even if we all agree it is a good idea.

[ April 06, 2005, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Hey guys, I appreciate all the support for my issue that I posted yesterday. It certainly has stimulated some debate! I'm going to add a little twist to this. Does it change anything if I were to add another 4 way in the loop for the travellers? So the 14/2 would loop down from the 3 way box to the first 4 way and then another 14/2 would go over to the second 4 way box and then back up to the box where the original 14/2 began to connect the travellers to the 3 way. If anyone would like a diagram of this I will be glad to send it if they email me or if anyone knows how to put a jpeg file on this site so everyone has access to it, I'll be glad to put it out there.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Walt,

The second 4way, or any additional 4ways, don't alter the point of discussion.

Just out of curiosity, are the switch boxes nonmetallic?
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

I see no code violation in this application and I permit it. What is the difference if you ran 2- 3 conductor cables instead of 2 - 2 wire? You are in no better shape other than you are feeding a grounded conductor thru the switch box that you do not need. 300.3(B) is for induction which I don't see as a problem here. That rule WOULD apply if you had a light/fan combo and you pulled 2 - 14/2 cables to it. You would then have a problem, being: 1) You would have a paralleled grounded conductor... or 2) As in the case of 300.3(B), you would have to NOT terminate the grounded conductor in one cable thus creating an induction problem due to the fact you would only have one ungrounded conductor in one of the cables. Am I thinking right or am I drunk again?? :cool:

[ April 06, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

It actually is an economical way to do just that.While i prefer to use 3 wire just to keep it simple ,it might be a lot cheaper depending on the situation.The inspector most likely feels he is correct so now educate him some
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

:eek: Bite chew, chew, chew, boy this taste good. Have you ever heard the story about couldn?t see a tree for looking at the woods, swallow. Boy this crow sure taste good, bite chew, chew, chew, wipe chin. :eek:

:eek: Please forget every thing I have posted in this thread for I was so far off base that the pitcher rolled the ball and got me out. Bite chew, chew, chew :eek:
:eek: I now see the light and have even wired switches this way myself many years ago. Boy my belly hurts.
:eek:
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Bless your heart, JW. :)

Respectfully,

Al
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

I apologize to each and every one of you for my stupidly. I was suffering from a severe brain fart from all the hotel food I was eating. Once I got home to my high speed I read the whole thread and started wondering why some one didn?t reach through the screen and slap me real hard. Then it came to me, the same reason I was only skim reading, my connection was as slow as a snail and I was flustered because my wife has got me spoiled with this high speed connection we have at home.
I suppose that being down there with all them smart people gave me some sort of complex, I though I was smart too. Note, now I know different.
:)
 
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