Mandatory replacement of "Fused load Centers"

[tadavidson]

What section of the NEC might I find a requirement that an inspector could use to require the replacement of the antiquated fuse load centers in dwelling units. If power is removed from a dwelling before He will allow the POCO to restore service He is wanting the old "fuse load centers" replaced with modern breaker style load centers.

 

[102 Inspector]

Even though I am an inspector, I would first politely say prove it. If the fuse load center is unmodified and otherwise code compliant, what business is it of his. If I am incorrect, everyone else will jump all over me.

 

[tadavidson]

Even though I am an inspector, I would first politely say prove it. If the fuse load center is unmodified and otherwise code compliant, what business is it of his. If I am incorrect, everyone else will jump all over me.

Thank you for sticking your neck out. There no doubt that the old fused load centers OFLC, are outdated and no new repair parts can be obtained. Nor can any new circuits be added (as they are required to be AFCI) but I need to SEE it in black and white.

 

[Jamesco]

What section of the NEC might I find a requirement that an inspector could use to require the replacement of the antiquated fuse load centers in dwelling units. If power is removed from a dwelling before He will allow the POCO to restore service He is wanting the old "fuse load centers" replaced with modern breaker style load centers.

Doesn't have to be an NEC requirement. There may be a city ordinance that requires it.

The AHJ has the final say and can amend NEC how ever they see fit by simply passing an ordinance.

 

[Jraef]

At a very basic level, he could probably cite 110.9 and 110.10, which require that circuit protective devices be capable of the fault duty (110.9) and be labeled as such (110.10). A lot of those old Fused Load Centers predate the requirement for that listing and labeling. If installed and never taken out of service, they can't force the upgrade. But by disconnecting from the utility and now wanting to reconnect, they can enforce that the service cannot be connected until the equipment meets current code. The trick would have been to never disconnect...

 

[JFletcher]

Circuits could be added if afci receptacles were used on the first one. Afci protection is required not specifically afci circuit breakers.

I do not know of a single NEC rule that would require a fuse panel be changed out, however you may run into a slew of other rules that would make it simply easier to put in a new panel than to work around an old fuse panel.

Eta: the inspector can want a new panel installe until he's blue in the face but it's up to him to show the sections requiring it

 

[tadavidson]

At a very basic level, he could probably cite 110.9 and 110.10, which require that circuit protective devices be capable of the fault duty (110.9) and be labeled as such (110.10). A lot of those old Fused Load Centers predate the requirement for that listing and labeling. If installed and never taken out of service, they can't force the upgrade. But by disconnecting from the utility and now wanting to reconnect, they can enforce that the service cannot be connected until the equipment meets current code. The trick would have been to never disconnect...

To quote an old German Soldier, Verrrrry Interesting. That dog might hunt.

 

[tadavidson]

Circuits could be added if afci receptacles were used on the first one. Afci protection is required not specifically afci circuit breakers.

I do not know of a single NEC rule that would require a fuse panel be changed out, however you may run into a slew of other rules that would make it simply easier to put in a new panel than to work around an old fuse panel.

Eta: the inspector can want a new panel installe until he's blue in the face but it's up to him to show the sections requiring it

will an AFCI work (legal) without grounding? I know a GFCI recpt. can be used without ground as long as all served state :GFCI protected, no equipment ground" Many (most) wires in the OFLC predate grounding conductor.

 

[tadavidson]

At a very basic level, he could probably cite 110.9 and 110.10, which require that circuit protective devices be capable of the fault duty (110.9) and be labeled as such (110.10). A lot of those old Fused Load Centers predate the requirement for that listing and labeling. If installed and never taken out of service, they can't force the upgrade. But by disconnecting from the utility and now wanting to reconnect, they can enforce that the service cannot be connected until the equipment meets current code. The trick would have been to never disconnect...

I just checked the 'line' side of some old screw in fuses. They have a 20 stamped on the tip that hits the center "bus". Would you interpret this "20" to be marking the fuse at the Amp interupting Capacity AIC and thus meet 110.9?

 

[tadavidson]

Doesn't have to be an NEC requirement. There may be a city ordinance that requires it.

The AHJ has the final say and can amend NEC how ever they see fit by simply passing an ordinance.

YESSIR, He (or she) is The "Authority Having Jurisdiction" and they can stiffin the code as they desire.

Isn't that correct?

 

[tom baker]

You'll want to article 240, part V, Plug Fuses, Fuseholders and Adapters.
The answer to your question is section 240.52(B)
Replacement Only. Plug Fuses of the Edison base type shall be used only for replacements in existing installations where there is no evidence of overfusing or tampering

One good solution to Edison based fuse holders is to use Type S fuses

 

[tadavidson]

You'll want to article 240, part V, Plug Fuses, Fuseholders and Adapters.
The answer to your question is section 240.52(B)
Replacement Only. Plug Fuses of the Edison base type shall be used only for replacements in existing installations where there is no evidence of overfusing or tampering

One good solution to Edison based fuse holders is to use Type S fuses

Say it again but slower for us older sparkies. I can't track with you. How does this answer my question?

 

[Sierrasparky]

YESSIR, He (or she) is The "Authority Having Jurisdiction" and they can stiffin the code as they desire.

Isn't that correct?

It really depends on the laws of your state. I California an inspector cannot make a rule more strict nilly willy. It needs to go through a process.

 

[hbiss]

YESSIR, He (or she) is The "Authority Having Jurisdiction" and they can stiffin the code as they desire.

Isn't that correct?

No. If a state has adopted the NEC an inspector has to enforce it as written unless the state has written and published amendments changing some articles. An inspector may have some leeway with interpretation of the NEC where something can go one way or another or is not covered, but he cannot make up his own rules.

As to your original question, more than likely it will be the insurance company that forces an upgrade. I don't think any will write a policy on a building or dwelling with plug fuses today. We have stories here of insurance companies requiring Zinsco and FPE panels to be replaced.

-Hal

 

[MyCleveland]

No. If a state has adopted the NEC an inspector has to enforce it as written unless the state has written and published amendments changing some articles. An inspector may have some leeway with interpretation of the NEC where something can go one way or another or is not covered, but he cannot make up his own rules.

As to your original question, more than likely it will be the insurance company that forces an upgrade. I don't think any will write a policy on a building or dwelling with plug fuses today. We have stories here of insurance companies requiring Zinsco and FPE panels to be replaced.

-Hal

Agree the insurance company will be the driver here. EC friend had a customer with 10-50 unit apt bldgs...1950-60 era all will fuse type panels. Insurance company said they had to go. They brought in local EI that gave them a laundry list of items they wanted to see.
Asked me for plans...told him no plans needed. Get an exact retrofit interior x 500 units. No extra spaces, just a copy of existing with CBers. Eaton provided a detailed spec sheet, submitted and accepted with no plans.

Talk with local Eaton rep, they may have a retrofit kit that will minimize the damage.

 

[LarryFine]

I, for one, see no problem with fuses. They're far less likely to malfunction than breakers.

 

[Jamesco]

No. If a state has adopted the NEC an inspector has to enforce it as written unless the state has written and published amendments changing some articles. An inspector may have some leeway with interpretation of the NEC where something can go one way or another or is not covered, but he cannot make up his own rules.

As to your original question, more than likely it will be the insurance company that forces an upgrade. I don't think any will write a policy on a building or dwelling with plug fuses today. We have stories here of insurance companies requiring Zinsco and FPE panels to be replaced.

-Hal

At present the OP does not know if there is an ordinance that says the fuse panel shall be replaced. One thing for sure the Utility PC will not do a hook up until the city signs off on a release.

He may have to do a search of building codes. Could be under fire codes.
He may have to do a search for, premises services have been disconnected and city requirements for the reconnection of services.
Time passage has a lot to do with it. How long were services disconnected from premises?
Or he could just call the head guy in charge at the city AHJ and ask him/her why the fuse panel must be replaced.

Here is a quick search I did for NY city, NY. For the year 2011. Not sure if it is the latest though.
Start reading on page 30.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electrical_code.pdf

This is only the NY city electrical code.

 

[tortuga]

I, for one, see no problem with fuses. They're far less likely to malfunction than breakers.

I tend to agree, a photo of the service/fuse box in question would help.
I for one would require this one to be replaced:

They modified the cover for easy fuse replacement.
And parallel tapped a 100A sup panel off a 60A main.....
There are some that are just fine however.

 

[macmikeman]

So anyway,,,,,,, macmikeman woulda slapped in a new panel like Jimminey Cricket wham bam and thank you ma'am and charged a thousand bucks for the six or eight circuits. Yep. This would be right after I explained to the homeowner that it was a terrific good call the inspector made , and how those there fuse boxes can blow up whole city blocks and leave nothing but a smoking crater in their place. And I might remind them that the children would have to pick up the financial pieces afterward due to the parents funerals and all. And also , those poor pets, think of the suffering they might go thru during the milliseconds of time that passes when a significant electrical explosion completely utterly without the slightest trace of mercy removes the house and even the memory of it ever being there due to the power unleashed. Yep. Sign right here at the bottom.

 

[drcampbell]

I, for one, see no problem with fuses. ...

That's only half the question. The other half is the fuse box, which might not have enough circuits, enough carrying capacity (I've seen some rated for only 30 amps) or enough interruption capacity if the neighborhood distribution has been upgraded in the 60 or so years that it's been since fuseboxes were common in new installations.