Mandatory replacement of "Fused load Centers"

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tadavidson said:
Any thoughts from the AFCI standpoint mentioned previously in this thread?
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If all you did was replace the panel, no AFCI would be required. That's in the NEC if you don't extend any circuit more than 6' no AFCI required.

If you did have to add AFCI, the only way, other than AFCI receptacle, would be to run a subpanel off the fuse panel. If you had to do that you might as well just replace the panel.
 
Little Bill said:
If all you did was replace the panel, no AFCI would be required. That's in the NEC if you don't extend any circuit more than 6' no AFCI required.

If you did have to add AFCI, the only way, other than AFCI receptacle, would be to run a subpanel off the fuse panel. If you had to do that you might as well just replace the panel.
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Would you give me the code reference to this 6' rule. Thanks.
 
LarryFine said:
I, for one, see no problem with fuses. They're far less likely to malfunction than breakers.
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Agreed! Fuses are much safer than circuit breakers. I hate seeing it said they are inherently unsafe by home inspection companies. Ever hear of an overloaded fuse refusing to blow?

But then I do also understand the downside. Nothing stops a user from swapping a nuisance blowing 15a fuse with a 30a. But remember the Fustat product? That had different sized bases for different currents. The Edison adapters were not removable once screwed in.
 
Andy Delle said:
... Nothing stops a user from swapping a nuisance blowing 15a fuse with a 30a. But remember the Fustat product? That had different sized bases for different currents. ...
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In Canada, Edison-base fuses are tamper-resistant. The diameter of the insulating bushing around the center contact corresponds to the ampacity of the fuse, and a rejection device in the fusebox prevents prevents you from overfusing.

The house I grew up in had Fustats. As it turns out, the adapters are removable if you have good manual dexterity and are stubborn enough. My dad removed the adapters from the nuisance circuits so he could install mini-breakers.
 
A guy I used to work with upgraded the service on his older home and the AHJ made him bring every receptacle up to current code. He pretty much had to re-wire the whole house to add receptacles and change to grounded receptacles. If you don't have the time and money to appeal an AHJ decision then that's what you get to do.
 
How long has it been since fusible loadcenters were discontinued? Somewhere have some 1970's ITE catalogs that listed them.
 
tadavidson said:
will an AFCI work (legal) without grounding? I know a GFCI recpt. can be used without ground as long as all served state :GFCI protected, no equipment ground" Many (most) wires in the OFLC predate grounding conductor.
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AFCI does not need an EGC to function, it is looking for arcing characteristics in the current being carried through current carrying conductor(s).

LarryFine said:
I, for one, see no problem with fuses. They're far less likely to malfunction than breakers.
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AFCI fuses work better then AFCI breakers:D

norcal said:
How long has it been since fusible loadcenters were discontinued? Somewhere have some 1970's ITE catalogs that listed them.
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Though they weren't making the loadcenters anymore I think you could still get Square D FSP modules back in the 1990's.
 
tadavidson said:
Thank you for sticking your neck out. There no doubt that the old fused load centers OFLC, are outdated and no new repair parts can be obtained. Nor can any new circuits be added (as they are required to be AFCI) but I need to SEE it in black and white.
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It is a rare fused load center that doesn't have feed-thru lugs that permit a feeder to a subpanel that can receive AFCI breakers. Go to the catalog pages for Fustats and you will find they are specified to interrupt 10,000 Amps symmetrical current (LOOK at the PDF sheet for Bussmann Fustats by clicking here ).

tadavidson said:
will an AFCI work (legal) without grounding? I know a GFCI recpt. can be used without ground as long as all served state :GFCI protected, no equipment ground" Many (most) wires in the OFLC predate grounding conductor.
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Yes. Both AFCI breakers and AFCI receptacles are made and listed to work without connection to the equipment grounding conductor.

tadavidson said:
Say it again but slower for us older sparkies. I can't track with you. How does this answer my question?
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"Edison" fuses have bases with threads identical to that of a standard incandescent 60 Watt light bulb. That's what makes them so easy to replace with the wrong sized fuse.
"S" Type fuses are "tamperproof" (to a practical point) by having different thread pitches for different current ratings. The S-type fuse can be retrofitted into a standard "Edison" threaded fuse socket by first installing an adapter in the old fuse socket that is chosen for the correct ampacity of the branch circuit. The adapter has a burr that goes in, but bites in if the adapter is reversed.

As long as the load center attached load calculates out as within range, and the fuses are Type S tamperproofs, then the NEC has nothing to say about it being an OFLC.
 
al hildenbrand said:
"Edison" fuses have bases with threads identical to that of a standard incandescent 60 Watt light bulb. That's what makes them so easy to replace with the wrong sized fuse.
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Also made it easy to use a high-wattage bulb as a combination indicator/current limiter when troubleshooting shorts. I often use a bulb in a rubber socket when troubleshooting breaker-protected circuits. It's hard to troubleshoot when you can't keep the breaker on.
 
al hildenbrand said:
"Edison" fuses have bases with threads identical to that of a standard incandescent 60 Watt light bulb. That's what makes them so easy to replace with the wrong sized fuse.
"S" Type fuses are "tamperproof" (to a practical point) by having different thread pitches for different current ratings. The S-type fuse can be retrofitted into a standard "Edison" threaded fuse socket by first installing an adapter in the old fuse socket that is chosen for the correct ampacity of the branch circuit. The adapter has a burr that goes in, but bites in if the adapter is reversed.
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Nice explanation.
drcampbell said:
The house I grew up in had Fustats. As it turns out, the adapters are removable if you have good manual dexterity and are stubborn enough. My dad removed the adapters from the nuisance circuits so he could install mini-breakers.
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Oh yeah I forgot about mini-breakers they do still make those:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/fuses-lv-ul-csa-branch/plug/mb.resources.html
Now they just need to make an AFCI one.

al hildenbrand said:
As long as the load center attached load calculates out as within range, and the fuses are Type S tamperproofs, then the NEC has nothing to say about it being an OFLC.
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Yes when adding a little two circuit sub panel to a 100A fuse box for one or two AFCI breakers.
I would add most old fuse load centers (OFLC) still in dwellings I see are 60Amp which is the problem.
I have seen aluminium tapped off OFLC I believe this is a no no, OFLC is not listed for AL wire (110.14). The new sub panel needs to comply with 110.26. I cant say how many I see in stairwells and closets with improper clearance.
Those #4 Type 'R' copper service entrance conductors that feed the 60A OFLC need to be protected at the ampacity table that was in effect when they were installed, so 70A max. Then 230.80 would prevent anything from being tapped off the main, so our little two circuit AFCI sub panel is already having issues if its tapping directly off 60A main lugs. If you tapped off those lower fused lugs and its a one family dwelling were back to 2017 NEC 230.79(C) which requires a minimum service size of 100A.

But when we get into just replacing the OFLC as
macmikeman said:
woulda slapped in a new panel like Jimminey Cricket wham bam and thank you ma'am and charged a thousand bucks for the six or eight circuits...
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Once again if its a one family dwelling;
Did we replace the 60Amp rated banjo meter base? Did we slap in some new service entrance conductors and conduit also? And update the grounding system? Then did we raise the service drop as our the utility requires? Or did we just slap in a 100A main on #4 Type R conductors from 1930? Or worse now the utility or AHJ is requiring a different meter location and a meter main...
Thats starting to sound like a can of worms for 1k
 
tortuga said:
Nice explanation.

Oh yeah I forgot about mini-breakers they do still make those:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...fuses-lv-ul-csa-branch/plug/mb.resources.html
Now they just need to make an AFCI one.


Yes when adding a little two circuit sub panel to a 100A fuse box for one or two AFCI breakers.
I would add most old fuse load centers (OFLC) still in dwellings I see are 60Amp which is the problem.
I have seen aluminium tapped off OFLC I believe this is a no no, OFLC is not listed for AL wire (110.14). The new sub panel needs to comply with 110.26. I cant say how many I see in stairwells and closets with improper clearance.
Those #4 Type 'R' copper service entrance conductors that feed the 60A OFLC need to be protected at the ampacity table that was in effect when they were installed, so 70A max. Then 230.80 would prevent anything from being tapped off the main, so our little two circuit AFCI sub panel is already having issues if its tapping directly off 60A main lugs. If you tapped off those lower fused lugs and its a one family dwelling were back to 2017 NEC 230.79(C) which requires a minimum service size of 100A.

But when we get into just replacing the OFLC as
Once again if its a one family dwelling;
Did we replace the 60Amp rated banjo meter base? Did we slap in some new service entrance conductors and conduit also? And update the grounding system? Then did we raise the service drop as our the utility requires? Or did we just slap in a 100A main on #4 Type R conductors from 1930? Or worse now the utility or AHJ is requiring a different meter location and a meter main...
Thats starting to sound like a can of worms for 1k
Click to expand...

No no no, it's ten K for all that other stuff...........:happyyes: Sign right here at the bottom....
 
tadavidson said:
What section of the NEC might I find a requirement that an inspector could use to require the replacement of the antiquated fuse load centers in dwelling units. If power is removed from a dwelling before He will allow the POCO to restore service He is wanting the old "fuse load centers" replaced with modern breaker style load centers.
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The international property maintenance code

The international existing building code

The national electrical code

Even the international electric code depending on the year

It has been my experience that the utility requires you to hire a a consultant who carries the criteria of being a certified electrical inspector.

The electrical inspector is hired as a consultant on behalf of the utility to evaluate the current condition of the service equipment and make a determination if the service is safe to energize.

If the utility companies consultant determines for any reason the service is unsafe you could be required to replace the unsafe equipment or continue to be without utility service.

Most inspectors look for general maintenance conditions, in addition to fuse tampering, over fusing, or evidence of arcing, or other damage to fuse holders.

The consultant has the choice of making the determination if type S fuses and type S fuse holders will solve the issue of fuse tampering.

It is strictly up to the inspector to determine what measure to take to abate any unsafe conditions discovered during a visual electrical inspection on behalf of the utility company
 
tortuga said:
Nice explanation.

Oh yeah I forgot about mini-breakers they do still make those:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...fuses-lv-ul-csa-branch/plug/mb.resources.html
Now they just need to make an AFCI one.


Yes when adding a little two circuit sub panel to a 100A fuse box for one or two AFCI breakers.
I would add most old fuse load centers (OFLC) still in dwellings I see are 60Amp which is the problem.
I have seen aluminium tapped off OFLC I believe this is a no no, OFLC is not listed for AL wire (110.14). The new sub panel needs to comply with 110.26. I cant say how many I see in stairwells and closets with improper clearance.
Those #4 Type 'R' copper service entrance conductors that feed the 60A OFLC need to be protected at the ampacity table that was in effect when they were installed, so 70A max. Then 230.80 would prevent anything from being tapped off the main, so our little two circuit AFCI sub panel is already having issues if its tapping directly off 60A main lugs. If you tapped off those lower fused lugs and its a one family dwelling were back to 2017 NEC 230.79(C) which requires a minimum service size of 100A.

But when we get into just replacing the OFLC as
Once again if its a one family dwelling;
Did we replace the 60Amp rated banjo meter base? Did we slap in some new service entrance conductors and conduit also? And update the grounding system? Then did we raise the service drop as our the utility requires? Or did we just slap in a 100A main on #4 Type R conductors from 1930? Or worse now the utility or AHJ is requiring a different meter location and a meter main...
Thats starting to sound like a can of worms for 1k
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Many of those are rated 100 amps. The ones that are rated 100 amps still has live range fuseholder when the main fuses are pulled.

If using the subfeed lugs, you are not supplying a service no requirement to be 100 amps.
 
tortuga said:
If you tapped off those lower fused lugs and its a one family dwelling were back to 2017 NEC 230.79(C) which requires a minimum service size of 100A.
Click to expand...
2017 NEC 230.79(C) is for the installation of a new service. There is nothing there that applies to adding a feeder or branch circuit from an EXISTING service.

Using 220.83 to calculate the requirements of the EXISTING load in the dwelling is the lynch pin, in my opinion. Adding a breaker subpanel to provide for AFCI breakers does not necessarily indicate that ANY load is being added. Most dwellings with existing fused load centers were given outlets spaced further apart than they have been for the last fifty years, which means, the owner / occupant may well be simply having additional General Lighting Outlets added. Most General Lighting Outlets are in areas listed in 210.12(A) and therefore require AFCI protection, however, the additional outlets are already included in the Calculated Load in the 3 Watts per square foot of existing floor area.

So, adding a Feeder from an existing 60 Amp fuse center to a circuit breaker subpanel for AFCI breakers protecting branch circuits supplying new General Lighting Outlets in existing floor space adds NO LOAD at all to the 220.83 calculation.
 
al hildenbrand said:
It is a rare fused load center that doesn't have feed-thru lugs that permit a feeder to a subpanel that can receive AFCI breakers. Go to the catalog pages for Fustats and you will find they are specified to interrupt 10,000 Amps symmetrical current (LOOK at the PDF sheet for Bussmann Fustats by clicking here ).


Yes. Both AFCI breakers and AFCI receptacles are made and listed to work without connection to the equipment grounding conductor.


"Edison" fuses have bases with threads identical to that of a standard incandescent 60 Watt light bulb. That's what makes them so easy to replace with the wrong sized fuse.
"S" Type fuses are "tamperproof" (to a practical point) by having different thread pitches for different current ratings. The S-type fuse can be retrofitted into a standard "Edison" threaded fuse socket by first installing an adapter in the old fuse socket that is chosen for the correct ampacity of the branch circuit. The adapter has a burr that goes in, but bites in if the adapter is reversed.

As long as the load center attached load calculates out as within range, and the fuses are Type S tamperproofs, then the NEC has nothing to say about it being an OFLC.
Click to expand...

Very informative, appreciate it.
 
tadavidson said:
Very informative, appreciate it.
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You're welcome.

The powerful thing about the Article 220 load calculation for an existing dwelling is that it is easy and quick. The practical aspect of adding new receptacles and lighting in an existing floor area without having it be an additional increase in the General Lighting of the dwelling is that the use of extension cords can be reduced, and, overall, the safety of the Premises Wiring (System) is increased.
 
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