Master/Slave

[winnie]

IMHO it is important to care about this, because words do have real power to hurt. IMHO casually dismissing this as somehow the recipients fault is casually dismissing the harm that you are causing.

But at the same time, the evolution of these words being offensive and taking offense at these specific words is also a social construction, and that social construction could easily go the other way. That is what triggers my instinct to push back.

For example "Slavery treats a person as an object. I _intentionally_ use 'master/slave' terminology when talking about _mechanical_ systems as a reminder that slavery is about _objects_ and to avoid ever treating a person in that fashion."

If we take a true hardware 'master/slave' setup, and call it 'leader/follower', then we imply that hardware has agency and choice in the matter. Maybe then we start treating human followers as mechanical slaves.

-Jon

 

[James L]

Not sure what you might be referring to, but sure anything can be pushed too far. E.g. if you had a colleague that objected to the word "red" for whatever reason, that would obviously present difficulties when talking about wire color. : - ) But in this case, I see no such difficulties.

Cheers, Wayne

I'm referring to people (maybe many potential customers) being immediately offended by a functional use of male and female, because they're already looking to be offended by those words.

Are we to say "pokey thingy" and holey thingy" ?

And it has absolute relationship to our field, because female can be hot all the time, but a male cannot be hot if it's not inserted into a female. Even that explanation could be viewed as controversial of it lacked context. I don't know what could be substituted.

Master/slave I'm ok with addressing, because we have some very capable words of expressing those concepts. This thread has yielded 2 or 3 I believe

 

[wwhitney]

I don't really care.

Ok, that's a choice. Personally I'll go for the more neighborly and considerate choice when it costs me nothing.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

For example "Slavery treats a person as an object. I _intentionally_ use 'master/slave' terminology when talking about _mechanical_ systems as a reminder that slavery is about _objects_ and to avoid ever treating a person in that fashion."

Eh, that argument, which I understand you are not fully endorsing, attempts to redefine the word slavery. Slavery means owning people as objects, and it is inherently immoral. So I don't see any justification for borrowing such a term for a technical purpose.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[James L]

Slavery means owning people as objects, and it is inherently immoral.

Erroneous definitions like that are causing the need for this discussion.

Slave simply has 3 main characteristics -
Completely enjoined to another
Completely dependent on another
Complete servitude

That's why a slave switch will not function unless it is connected to a master switch. And the slave unit is to only perfom functions for the main unit. It's really that simple.

In many cultures (particularly in antiquity) a female slave would be purchased in order to become a wife. A wife (even if she were never a slave) would many times be viewed as lower than a slave because being male (even a slave) superseded being a wife in patriarchal societies.

indentured servants were slaves - not because of ownwrship, but becayse of financial dependence on the master, who would have paid a large debt for the slave.

A slave could, and many times would, be the most educated person in the house, and could purchase his own freedom.

In Christian verbiage, slave simply means bondservant. See how that fits in with the definition I've given another

All this is being lost in slavery verbiage. I hate it that language changes (some say evolve). But it does, and causes some to ponder

 

[roger]

Shifting gears a little but in the same gist, I've heard some people think using the word retard in any sense is a bad thing.

 

[wwhitney]

Erroneous definitions like that are causing the need for this discussion.

What dictionary would you like to use? Google excerpts Oxford Languages, which gives (4) definitions for "slavery":

- the state of being a slave.
- the practice or system of owning slaves.
- a condition compared to that of a slave in respect of exhausting labor or restricted freedom.
- excessive dependence on or devotion to something.

So hardly erroneous.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Little Bill]

The small amount of people that get offended by some words are just looking for something to get offended by. I don't think the 95% should have to cater to the 5%!!!
I'm just talking about common terms that have been used for years. Now if a word is deliberately aimed at someone to cause offense, that's a different story.

 

[wwhitney]

The small amount of people that get offended by some words are just looking for something to get offended by.

I think ascribing insincerity as the motivation is merely an attempt at justifying being inconsiderate. While I can't say that what you describe never happens, there no reason to believe it is typical. In the case of the OP, it is eminently reasonable that some people would be sincerely offended.

I really don't understand the pushback on this, what is the cost to using the term leader/follower rather than master/slave?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[James L]

What dictionary would you like to use? Google excerpts Oxford Languages, which gives (4) definitions for "slavery":

- the state of being a slave.
- the practice or system of owning slaves.
- a condition compared to that of a slave in respect of exhausting labor or restricted freedom.
- excessive dependence on or devotion to something.

So hardly erroneous.

Cheers, Wayne

I don't want to use any of those except the last one, because they are of the modern genus to which I referred as veering from historical usage. I'll note my particular reference to antiquity.

Even in our field, the [short] historical use of master and slave are undeniable proof that nobody thought of only human ownership when mentioning slaves, even 100 years ago.

But now, people no longer think of slave as a bondservant, any more than they think a cock is a rooster.

 

[GoldDigger]

Shifting gears a little but in the same gist, I've heard some people think using the word retard in any sense is a bad thing.

So the ignition system in an internal combustion engine advances and anti-advances the spark timing based on RPM and load?
There is a big difference (which many people cheerfully ignore) between the noun usage (ungrammatical as well as offensive) and the verb usage. The adjective form is harder to pin down.
And of course there is the issue of fire-slowdownant chemicals. Or would they be fire-keepfromspreadingsofastant?

 

[infinity]

I don't really care. Push it up to 35% I will consider it, but 5% will always look for a way to be offended. Personally I wish we would get completely over the words. Words only have power when they are given power by the recipient.

I agree. Someone will always be offended even by things that no one else finds offensive. The OP mentioned master/slave. I'm fine with that. I really doubt that someone who may be 7 or 8 generations removed from a slave is going to lose sleep over the continued used of the master/slave descriptor. In fact they wouldn't even share any DNA with the slave.

 

[wwhitney]

But now, people no longer think of slave as a bondservant, any more than they think a cock is a rooster.

Just granting for the moment your statements about the historical drift of language, who do you want to communicate with? People around you now, or people 400 years ago?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[roger]

Here's one definition that comes up when doing search for slave.

2.
a device, or part of one, directly controlled by another.
"a slave cassette deck"

 

[wwhitney]

I really doubt that someone who may be 7 or 8 generations removed from a slave is going to lose sleep over the continued used of the master/slave descriptor.

I'm confident that you are mistaken. I recall reading an op-ed (sorry, I can't find it) about a young engineering undergrad who first encountered this terminology in one of their courses and had the reaction (to paraphrase from memory) "Why in heck are they using these terms? Are they trying to tell me that I don't belong in this field?" That's obviously just one anecdote, but there are also surveys like this:

https://peer.asee.org/assessing-the-effects-of-master-slave-terminology-on-inclusivity-in-engineering-education.pdf

In fact they wouldn't even share any DNA with the slave.

Sure they would. You share 50% with your direct offspring, so after 7 generations, it would be 1/128, or 0.8% or so. That's still more similarity than for two random people.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[James L]

Just granting for the moment your statements about the historical drift of language, who do you want to communicate with? People around you now, or people 400 years ago?

Cheers, Wayne

That's why I said some language is worth revisiting, such as slave/master. And we have several examples of alternate word choices.

But other concepts, such as male/female, pose direct consequences to our trade and should not be tinkered with no matter how much someone dislikes it

 

[roger]

Let's not even go into the "ridged nipple" disscussion?

 

[ActionDave]

I think ascribing insincerity as the motivation is merely an attempt at justifying being inconsiderate. While I can't say that what you describe never happens, there no reason to believe it is typical. In the case of the OP, it is eminently reasonable that some people would be sincerely offended.

I really don't understand the pushback on this, what is the cost to using the term leader/follower rather than master/slave?

Cheers, Wayne

So we get rid of master/slave. What impact does that have? Who's life gets better?

 

[ActionDave]

I'm confident that you are mistaken. I recall reading an op-ed (sorry, I can't find it) about a young engineering undergrad who first encountered this terminology in one of their courses and had the reaction (to paraphrase from memory) "Why in heck are they using these terms? Are they trying to tell me that I don't belong in this field?"

You are better than this argument.

 

[Little Bill]

Let's not even go into the "ridged nipple" disscussion?

I'm offended that we can't discuss this!