Material Used Outside of its Listing

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conleyrb

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I wanted to bounce this one off of the panel. I have a situation where sheet metal boxes with knockouts was surface mounted in a 'Kelly' building. The manufacturer states that these boxes comply with UL 514A Metallic Outlet Boxes. If you read the standard it states that these boxes are approved for flush mounted applications. The inspector says these boxes are being installed outside of their UL listing (E2669) and they need to be changed out to a type meeting the NEMA FB-1 standard (cast box).

I understand the inspector's logic, but I have seen this type of installation used all over and wondered if anyone else had seen this issue raised. Thanks.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

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Location
Westchester County, New York
conleyrb said:
I wanted to bounce this one off of the panel. I have a situation where sheet metal boxes with knockouts was surface mounted in a 'Kelly' building. The manufacturer states that these boxes comply with UL 514A Metallic Outlet Boxes. If you read the standard it states that these boxes are approved for flush mounted applications. The inspector says these boxes are being installed outside of their UL listing (E2669) and they need to be changed out to a type meeting the NEMA FB-1 standard (cast box).

I understand the inspector's logic, but I have seen this type of installation used all over and wondered if anyone else had seen this issue raised. Thanks.
Click to expand...


What is a "Kelly" building?
Where are you installing these boxes? Outside, or exposed somehow, that he is looking for a "cast" type box?
 
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conleyrb

Member
A Kelly building is just a steel trussed building with siding, no interior walls. All of the circuits are connected via surface-mounted conduit and boxes. This building will be used as a shop and the inspector's concern is that a knockout could be dislodged moving equipment and material around make contact with the exposed connections inside the box.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
We see 1900 boxes (some people call them 4"squares) surface mounted in shops. I do not see that he can require this, unless there is more to it than can be discerned through this thread.
Being there is always better than just reading about an issue.
 
C

conleyrb

Member
Reply to Brian:

No, the building was site built and then an electrical contractor installed the wiring. The design engineer only supplied a couple of one-line drawings indicating where panels, outlets, and switches were located - no bill of materials.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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The manufacturer states that these boxes comply with UL 514A Metallic Outlet Boxes. If you read the standard it states that these boxes are approved for flush mounted applications.
Click to expand...
The standard applies to almost all boxes, not just those intented for flush installation.

Metallic Outlet Boxes

UL 514A


1 Scope

1.1 This standard applies to metallic OUTLET BOXES, flush-DEVICE BOXES, FLOOR BOXES, CONCRETE BOXES, EXTENSION RINGS, covers, CONDUIT BODIES, BAR HANGERS, bar-hanger assemblies, and all accessories whose principal function is for support of boxes. The products covered by this standard are intended for installation in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC), NFPA 70, the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC), Part I, and the Standard for Electrical Installations, NOM-001-SEDE.In Canada, CONDUIT BODIES are not evaluated as OUTLET BOXES; they are fittings. Requirements in this standard for CONDUIT BODIES intended for use as OUTLET BOXES do not apply in Canada.
Click to expand...
 
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conleyrb

Member
Thanks Don, the issue is that these boxes are surface mounted (not flush) and the inspector says they are installed outside of their listing.
 
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dbuckley

Senior Member
Location
Canterbury, New Zealand
conleyrb said:
... the inspector's concern is that a knockout could be dislodged [by] moving equipment and material around [and (presumably) the knockout could] make contact with the exposed connections inside the box.
Click to expand...

Thats a bit fanciful. I'm quite happy a forklift could give a serious backward stagger to the box and associated piping, but it takes skill to get just the knockout while the box remains attached to the structure...
 
infinity

infinity

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conleyrb said:
I understand the inspector's logic, but I have seen this type of installation used all over and wondered if anyone else had seen this issue raised. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't, if his logic means that standard 1900 and 4 11/16" box can't be surface mounted then why would the code ever permit these:

11402.JPG
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Last edited:
weressl

weressl

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Location
Texas by the Gulf, geat crab, great shrimp
conleyrb said:
I wanted to bounce this one off of the panel. I have a situation where sheet metal boxes with knockouts was surface mounted in a 'Kelly' building. The manufacturer states that these boxes comply with UL 514A Metallic Outlet Boxes. If you read the standard it states that these boxes are approved for flush mounted applications. The inspector says these boxes are being installed outside of their UL listing (E2669) and they need to be changed out to a type meeting the NEMA FB-1 standard (cast box).

I understand the inspector's logic, but I have seen this type of installation used all over and wondered if anyone else had seen this issue raised. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The inspector is argument is missing the concern. Knockout boxes usually have multiple small holes to facilitate fastening to structure, each other, etc.

http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/004/4676.jpg

Any conductive item wielded around, such as a coat hanger can make it's way into the box and make inadvertent short circuit. In addition the "knockouts" the weakened prepunched holes that can be knocked-out buy a screwdriver can be easily dislodged, again allowing for wire exposure. They are designed for concealed installation. The cast boxes are just one of the types that are suitable for surface mounting AND exposed instalaltion.

Incidentally knockout boxes are WIDELY used for surface mounted wiring. That does not mean that it is right!
 
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iwire

iwire

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weressl said:
The inspector is argument is missing the concern.
Click to expand...

That is simply a personal opinion, not a code fact.

Knockout boxes usually have multiple small holes to facilitate fastening to structure, each other, etc.

Any conductive item wielded around, such as a coat hanger can make it's way into the box and make inadvertent short circuit.
Click to expand...

Yes it could....of course that same coat hanger could find it's way into the receptacle itself.


In addition the "knockouts" the weakened prepunched holes that can be knocked-out buy a screwdriver can be easily dislodged, again allowing for wire exposure. They are designed for concealed installation.
Click to expand...

I see you have not been following along, the boxes in question are in fact UL listed for both surface and concealed use.

Incidentally knockout boxes are WIDELY used for surface mounted wiring. That does not mean that it is right!
Click to expand...

Incidentally just because you do not like a particular installation does not make it wrong. ;) :smile:
 
H

hillbilly

Senior Member
Man...I'm hearing new "stuff" all the time.

A inspector really red tagged a surface mounted 4 square steel box because the knockouts "could" become dislodged and allow somweone to stick a wire, finger, etc. into the hole and get shocked?

I worked in industrial plants world wide for over 20 years, and this is the way (probably still is) that it's done.
I never recall seeing, or even hearing about this problem actually occuring.

As Iwire mentioned....what about the receptacle openings?

I guess that we should start installing child proof plugs into the receptacles when they're not in use.

Gimme a break.
steve
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
Knockout boxes usually have multiple small holes to facilitate fastening to structure, each other, etc.
Any conductive item wielded around, such as a coat hanger can make it's way into the box and make inadvertent short circuit.
Click to expand...
Those small holes are permitted by the NEMA and UL standards for surface mounted enclosures.
Don
 
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