Maximize 40A Subpanel

[petersonra]

As usual I should have read back closer. I just take exception to the idea that the breaker tripping is any consideration in the loading of a panel.

If it trips it is doing what it is supposed to do to protect the wiring.

I agree the potential for it to trip should not be a consideration. The code legal answer. Is to do a load calculation. The way it is almost always handled is someone just adds a circuit.

 

[ramsy]

That is not a dangerous condition. It is just a nuisance.

It becomes a hazard over time, when listed equipment is not maintained, bakes in the sun, and loses calibration or function.

 

[petersonra]

It becomes a hazard over time, when listed equipment is not maintained, bakes in the sun, and loses calibration or function.

The conditions you mentioned don't require a noncompliant load calculation to create a hazard nor would it exacerbate it.

 

[ramsy]

It runs for such a short time a feeder is not even going to notice it.

Most contractors ignore load calcs, especially when refusing to service, clean, or maintain Stab-Lok, Zinsco, or other 50+ year old fuse boxes, per NEC 110.12(B). They just replace it, load calc be damned.

 

[ramsy]

The conditions you mentioned don't require a noncompliant load calculation to create a hazard nor would it exacerbate it.

Contractors insist on panel upgrades, regardless if not required by load calcs, so it seems over-sized services & feeders are needed when its convenient.

 

[ptonsparky]

It becomes a hazard over time, when listed equipment is not maintained, bakes in the sun, and loses calibration or function.

Kind of like everything else.

 

[Little Bill]

The refrigerator is also covered as part of those kitchen appliance circuits.

It can be, but also allowed to be own a dedicated circuit.

 

[ramsy]

That is not a dangerous condition. It is just a nuisance.

Did you consider breaker test buttons designed to fail in the energized position?

2-Pole GFCI’s are used for pool-panel feeders, garages, other MWBC’s, and just like AFCI breakers with test buttons, GFCI breaker test buttons fail in the energized state.

Since reset buttons can fail while energized, relying on it for small feeders is more likely to burn up that feeder wire.

The feeder becomes the fuse that burns down the building.

 

[Little Bill]

Did you consider breaker test buttons designed to fail in the energized position?

2-Pole GFCI’s are used for pool-panel feeders, garages, other MWBC’s, and just like AFCI breakers with test buttons, GFCI breaker test buttons fail in the energized state.

Since reset buttons can fail while energized, relying on it for small feeders is more likely to burn up that feeder wire.

Becomes the fuse that burns down the building.

They may not have GFCI/AFCI protection but they will still trip on overload.

 

[ramsy]

They may not have GFCI/AFCI protection but they will still trip on overload.

Where did you get that?

Here is my source:
A study done in 1999 by the American Society of Home Inspectors found the failure rate for GFCI devices was 20%, and in areas of high lightning activity, such as south Florida, over 50%.
https://www.boats.com/how-to/the-forgotten-gfci/

 

[suemarkp]

It can be, but also allowed to be own a dedicated circuit.

True, but you don't have to add additional load for it as it is assumed to already be covered by a small appliance circuit. 220.52(A) exception.

 

[Little Bill]

Where did you get that?

Here is my source:
A study done in 1999 by the American Society of Home Inspectors found the failure rate for GFCI devices was 20%, and in areas of high lightning activity, such as south Florida, over 50%.
https://www.boats.com/how-to/the-forgotten-gfci/

The GFCI, or AFCI, portion of a breaker is different then the thermal and short circuit portion of the breaker.

 

[ramsy]

The GFCI, or AFCI, portion of a breaker is different then the thermal and short circuit portion of the breaker.

There should be a test standard that cycles separate functions, after xFCI reset-button failure, to verify it wont jam Therm/Mag trip mechanism?

Unless listed instructions requiring xFCI push-button tests every month, per 110.3(B), punts to someone else to replace under warranty.

 

[petersonra]

Where did you get that?

Here is my source:
A study done in 1999 by the American Society of Home Inspectors found the failure rate for GFCI devices was 20%, and in areas of high lightning activity, such as south Florida, over 50%.
https://www.boats.com/how-to/the-forgotten-gfci/

GFCI outlets provide no protection from over current. Only ground fault current.

 

[2Htm]

Thank you all for taking the time to share your valuable insights and knowledge! I truly appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness that went into your responses!!!