meter banks

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Re: meter banks

Now we install another set of service entrance conductors from the same service drop, 230.40 Exc. 2 permits us to do that.
He's already got six disconnects.
 
Re: meter banks

Sam,
Each set of service entrance conductors is permitted to have six service disconnects. The conductors that leave the load side of the meter are service entrance conductors.
Don
 
Re: meter banks

230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets. Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

Ex. 2 maintains that the service drop be held to six disconnects.

Right?
 
Re: meter banks

Charlie
I'm still confused by your post
Now we install another set of service entrance conductors from the same service drop, 230.40 Exc. 2 permits us to do that.
You may now wrap around the building to any location of your choosing to the new service location.

The way I read Ex. 2, the disconnects must be grouped at one location. Can you explain how you are allowed to wrap around the building? Do you have separate structures or are your additional disconnect(s) on the same building?
Thanks again
Jim T
 
Re: meter banks

230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects
Middle of paragrph states

There shall be no more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location.
 
Re: meter banks

12disconects.JPG
 
Re: meter banks

Sam We just had this at our state Meeting when going over the "2005" code.

230.40 Exception 1. means is one service drop can supply several set's of service entrance conductors, each set of service entrance conductors can supply up to 6 disconnects at each unit. Each disconnect can also have a meter in it, or each set of service entrance conductors can have a meter in it.

Let's say you have a strip mall with 16 units and each unit has 6 offices in each one. Each unit can have it's own meter pack with 6 disconnect's and 6 meters or one meter with 6 disconnects, As Charlie said the meter fitting is not service equipment and can be placed any where the POCO would want it and would most likely be at the location of the other meters. Then when a drop from another source get's into the picture for reliable power it gets even more fun as you can double all this again. Now say you need an Emergency generator that takes care of the whole building! Add another set again. Look in the Analysis of Changes (2005 NEC) under 230.40 on page 61 they even have a good graphic example of this. This section was just clarified and the 2002 still has the same allowance.

Just read the bold. ;)

230.40 Exception No. 1: A building with one or more than one occupancy shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors for each service of different characteristics, as defined in 230.2(D), run to each occupancy or group of occupancies.
 
Re: meter banks

I've got some similar illustrations, none with more than six disconnects on a drop. And yours is showing meters, not meters and disconnects.
 
Re: meter banks

Originally posted by physis:
I've got some similar illustrations, none with more than six disconnects on a drop. And yours is showing meters, not meters and disconnects.
You must have good eyes. :)
 
Re: meter banks

Hi Wayne, you snuck in on me again.

Maybe I'm just dense. Well, I know I'm dense.

Let me see if I can find a way to agree that you can have more than six disconnects per drop.
 
Re: meter banks

Jim,
Can you explain how you are allowed to wrap around the building?
The six disconnects for each set of service entrance conductors must be grouped with each other, but they are not required to be grouped with the disconnects for the other sets of service entrance conductors.
Don
 
Re: meter banks

Let me be stupid one item at a time.

230.40 ex.1 applies to [as defined in 230.2(D)]

230.2(D) Different Characteristics. Additional services shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases, or for different uses, such as for different rate schedules.

Is that supposed to apply here?
 
Re: meter banks

Originally posted by physis:
230.40 ex.1 applies to [as defined in 230.2(D)]

230.2(D) Different Characteristics. Additional services shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases, or for different uses, such as for different rate schedules.

Is that supposed to apply here?
Yes and no, if you only have one set of characteristics you can have only one set of service entrance conductors.

If you have more than one set of characteristics you can have more than one set of service entrance conductors.

230.40 Exception No. 1: A building with one or more than one occupancy shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors for each service of different characteristics, as defined in 230.2(D), run to each occupancy or group of occupancies.
 
Re: meter banks

So would it be safe to say that 230.40 Ex.1 isn't applicable in this case?

Edit: And would it be safe to say that 230.40 Ex. 2 only applies to grouped service equipment where there are no more than six disconnects.

[ February 11, 2005, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: meter banks

You guy's are missing what I posted. If any others have the Analysis Of Changes (2005) and go to page 61 you will see what I mean. Exception 1. was a mistake, as it is written it is saying that only with one or more than one occupancy shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors for each service of different characteristics.
Now does that make any sense? Why would there even be a need for this exception when 230.2(D) already allow's for this? What was the exception was suposed to intend is what was in the "1999" 230-40 Exception 1. :

230-40 Exception No. 1: Buildings with one or more than one occupancy shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors for each class of service run to each occupancy or group of occupancies.
Which clearly allows each occupancy to have a set of entrance conductors or each group of occupancies. This is why they had to remove the refrance to 230.2(D) which was the mistake. The "2002" has the same intention but the wrong word's

Ok is this any better?
 
Re: meter banks

That's why I like going back to older code cycles to see what was changed and why. As I have said before on here, I wish the NFPA had a archive that could be researched on-line even if I had to pay for the service it would be worth it. Or a CD-ROM with this archive on it, of all the available ROP's ROC's TIA's and any other info that relates to decisions that were used to accept proposals, as far back as they can go.

This info would be invaluable to understanding the NEC and the process of making it.

[ February 12, 2005, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: meter banks

One more question if I add another service entrance cable up to the service point ,does it matter if the first set is for 800 amps and the new one is for only 100 amps?Also Don in your post you stated the service entrance cable is from the load side of the meter.are you saying to add new service entrance for the additional service from the tap box or should I run a new entrance cable up to the service point like in Bob,s drawing?or will either suffice?Sorry for the confusion but I want to be sure.
 
Re: meter banks

As much as we all want to know the panel's "intent" or history of the language, the intent or history has nothing to do with the present wording. The final words must stand by themselves and are open to interpretation by the local AHJs.

I have researched things to come up with history in order to shed light on my interpretation of a particular section but I am not the AHJ. Intent can be gotten from the panel statements during the preparation of the ROP and ROC but they are still not permitted to be used to "force" the AHJ to see it your way. The final words in the Code must stand by themselves and are open to interpretation by the local AHJs.

Wayne was talking about our state meeting of the IAEI. I passed out a paper that I put together on this subject and it gave the background of this exception. The importance of this meeting is that the state AHJ had approved the content of my paper before I handed it out. If a contractor uses it for their project and is turned down, the state will automatically overrule the local AHJ. If anyone would like a copy of that paper, send me a PM and I will send you a PDF file of it to you. Remember, the final words in the Code must stand by themselves and are open to interpretation by the local AHJs. :D
 
Re: meter banks

If I may beat a dead horse please...

I have a church that has a 600 amp C.T. cabinet mounted to the outside of the building. I have 3 separate 200 amp panels with main breakers in a utility room (grouped together) inside the building. I wanted to add a 200 amp main breaker panel next to the C.T. cabinet to supply 5 pad mount A/C's. The inspector turned me down stating this main disconnect was not grouped with the others. using 230.40 exc. 2, I would have been correct?

Bob
 
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