Meter / Main combo and no EGC running to sub-panel?

[Indian_Rdr]

The utility around here is telling us we CAN NOT run an EGC from the new meter / main combos to the house panel. This has me confused. Aren't these now feeders going to a sub-panel since the bonding of GEC and neutral is in the combo along with first means of disconnect (200a breaker in combo)? They are telling us to run the EGC to rebar or copper tubing only.

So then what happens when rebar is not provided (it's not required here for contractors to do this) and it's plastic coming in from outside for water? Ground rod 6' away?

 

[infinity]

I would start by asking why does the utility company have anything to say what happens when you go past the service disconnect? That is typically not part of their purview and is clearly under the NEC. The EGC is required by the NEC so it sounds like someone is giving you wrong information.

Also please update your location as it helps us with regional questions like these.

 

[Indian_Rdr]

Ahh, yes this is in Edwardsville, IL and Ameren. They are saying because of parallel paths if neutral is lost EGC will carry load. Which yes that could happen but the house panel is now a sub-panel, the neutral is not bonded and grounds / neutrals are separated that wouldn't happen.

This is information given second hand from the builder so I'm waiting for a call back from Ameren to hopefully clarify this. Am wanting to make sure I was looking at it correctly that with a combo meter, the conductors entering the residence are now feeders not service conductors and the house panel is now a sub-panel requiring a EGC.

 

[Fred B]

If you are on the newer codes it allows for the meter/main to be an "Emergency Disconnect Only" and allowing the use of only ungrounded and grounded conductors without the use of an EGC. They might be taking that "Allowance" and suggesting it is a requirement. But that is not the only means to make this design compliant and the older means that had 4 conductor as you mentioned still compliant per NEC.

 

[Indian_Rdr]

If you are on the newer codes it allows for the meter/main to be an "Emergency Disconnect Only" and allowing the use of only ungrounded and grounded conductors without the use of an EGC. They might be taking that "Allowance" and suggesting it is a requirement. But that is not the only means to make this design compliant and the older means that had 4 conductor as you mentioned still compliant per NEC.

Ahh, that may be it. Good information will do some research on this.

 

[infinity]

Ahh, yes this is in Edwardsville, IL and Ameren. They are saying because of parallel paths if neutral is lost EGC will carry load

Whoever said that is clueless. As you've stated that cannot happen if the sub-panel is wired properly.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ahh, yes this is in Edwardsville, IL and Ameren. They are saying because of parallel paths if neutral is lost EGC will carry load. Which yes that could happen but the house panel is now a sub-panel, the neutral is not bonded and grounds / neutrals are separated that wouldn't happen.

This is information given second hand from the builder so I'm waiting for a call back from Ameren to hopefully clarify this. Am wanting to make sure I was looking at it correctly that with a combo meter, the conductors entering the residence are now feeders not service conductors and the house panel is now a sub-panel requiring a EGC.

Ameren has some strange ideas and prohibit things that many other utilities permit. They even require two ground rods at the meter, no matter what other grounding electrodes are there, and require the GEC from those two rods to be connected in the meter.

 

[jap]

To the contrary, if you do not pull an equipment grounding conductor from Meter/Main to the house panel, then you'd be required to bond the neutral to ground at the house panel, and, if you should happen to loose the neutral from the meter/main to the house panel for any reason the voltage would energize all non current carrying parts of the electrical wiring since the neutral and equipment grounding conductors are bonded in the house panel.

If an EGC is pulled from the meter/main to the house panel, and, the neutral and grounds are kept separate and you should happen to loose a neutral, you would simply loose power to whatever the breakers in the house panel were feeding, but, you would not be energizing all of the normally non-current carrying parts of the electrical system.

For that reason, I've always found it to be much safer if you can do your bonding and grounding at the remote pedestal or meter/main and pull an EGC from there rather than bonding and grounding in the house panel.

Jap>

 

[jaggedben]

The utility around here is telling us we CAN NOT run an EGC from the new meter / main combos to the house panel. ...

Sounds like someone is unclear on multiple concepts. Are meter/main combos 'new' in your area? Around here they've been the most common thing for decades.

Ameren has some strange ideas and prohibit things that many other utilities permit. They even require two ground rods at the meter, no matter what other grounding electrodes are there, and require the GEC from those two rods to be connected in the meter.

So with a meter main combo, where the only provided GEC connection might be on the panelboard side, what do they say? Or do their heads just explode?

 

[jap]

With that being said, if one decides to bring the feeder into the bottom of of a top fed loadcenter when it's on an outside wall to keep the outside conduit as short as possible, when they loop the wire from the bottom entrance to the top to land on the Main Breaker, the feeder wiring most always fills up the raceway cavity between the load side of the breaker and the edge of the panel, and, also manages to cover up most places on the Neutral Bar or the Ground Bar where it's supposed to be mounted if it doesn't already come with one.

In those instances, it's more practical to bond in the house panel with the bonding screw through the neutral bar to the tub and utilize as many of the available holes in the neutral bar for all the neutrals and EGC's to land on.

I've always felt we need offset loadcenters (like offset meter/mains) where the service or feeder conductors could terminate in one compartment and keep that crap out of the way of where all the branch circuit terminations take place.

Oh well,,,

JAP>

 

[Little Bill]

With that being said, if one decides to bring the feeder into the bottom of of a top fed loadcenter when it's on an outside wall to keep the outside conduit as short as possible, when they loop the wire from the bottom entrance to the top to land on the Main Breaker, the feeder wiring most always fills up the raceway cavity between the load side of the breaker and the edge of the panel, and, also manages to cover up most places on the Neutral Bar or the Ground Bar where it's supposed to be mounted if it doesn't already come with one.

In those instances, it's more practical to bond in the house panel with the bonding screw through the neutral bar to the tub and utilize as many of the available holes in the neutral bar for all the neutrals and EGC's to land on.

I've always felt we need offset loadcenters (like offset meter/mains) where the service or feeder conductors could terminate in one compartment and keep that crap out of the way of where all the branch circuit terminations take place.

Oh well,,,

JAP>

Easy, just flip the panel!

 

[jap]

Easy, just flip the panel!

Not so easy, it turns the main breaker upside down.

Jap>

 

[jap]

Or if a Horizontal top fed Main to the left will be on instead of off if you flip it.

Jap>

 

[jap]

Scratch all that.
What's allowed and what I'm used to are 2 completely different things.

Jap>

 

[Little Bill]

Scratch all that.
What's allowed and what I'm used to are 2 completely different things.

Jap>

Consider it scratched!

 

[electrofelon]

Not so easy, it turns the main breaker upside down.

Jap>

But this is true. I have to flip the main in three phase Siemens load centers sometimes to comply with that NEC rule that up is on. But I would rather flip the breaker than have the conductors run up thru the gutter space to come into the top. That drives me crazy too.

 

[jap]

I'm battling the whole 3 wire 4 wire thing.
On a new service if there is a 200 amp breaker in the Poco pedestal remote from a dwelling unit we can call that the Emergency Disconnect and pull 3 wire from it to the structure and do all our grounding and bonding there?
Or
Us it still 4 wire from the pedestal and Neutral and Ground separate at the structure?

 

[jap]

If you are on the newer codes it allows for the meter/main to be an "Emergency Disconnect Only" and allowing the use of only ungrounded and grounded conductors without the use of an EGC. They might be taking that "Allowance" and suggesting it is a requirement. But that is not the only means to make this design compliant and the older means that had 4 conductor as you mentioned still compliant per NEC.

So 3 wire from a remote POCO pedestal's OCPD to a dwelling unit is now allowed with the grounding and bonding done at the structure,
Correct?

Jap

 

[LarryFine]

Yes. Basically, the emergency disconnect ahead of the house's service disconnect is just another lump in the service cable like the meter is.

 

[jap]

Thanks.

Jap.