Meter socket adapters?

pipe_bender said:
Their solar person is proposing to use a goofy looking 'meter socket adapter' despite not being allowed by our utility.
They want an electrical contractor (me) to install a 'separate meter can downstream of the utility meter'.
I dont know why they even bother with this, seems like a hack to me, so I am asking you experts your thoughts on this
Here is the unit:
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This is an option, it's covered in the meter collar installation manual. The PV has to be connected downstream of the meter collar for it to provide power when disconnected from the utility. Since you are working with an existing PV installation this may require moving the POI.
pipe_bender said:
https://enphase.com/download/iq-meter-collar-data-sheet
What would you do here and if you have installed one how well do these things work?
I am not familiar with Enpahse products and their site is so full of fluff its unusable, do any of you more up to date with Enphase people know if they have a 3R ATS like enclosure or 'stand alone MID' product that does not make me look like a clown?
I take it they dont, as they are pushy about this, but I'd love to be worng.
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You will need to become very familiar with enphase systems to do this. It's not as simple as a PV installation. You need to determine if a whole house backup is possible or if a new backup loads panel will need to be installed. You need the IQ System controller to control the meter collar, battery, and microinverters. Since this is an existing installation you will need to determine if the microinverters are compatible with the IQ System controller you use.
pipe_bender said:
Then I noticed it takes a 24V control cable, and in the past I have done controls for commercial ATS's that mix and match brands so I got thinking can I use the Enphase 24V with a off the self 200A ATS?

Thanks everyone for reading.
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You should stay in the enphase world to make this work correctly. If you try to put together your own control system then most likely both you and your client will not be happy with the result. Good luck.
 
pv_n00b said:
You should stay in the enphase world to make this work correctly. If you try to put together your own control system then most likely both you and your client will not be happy with the result. Good luck.
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It sounds like the OP is just being asked to add the meter socket and there is a solar contractor installing the rest. If so I doubt the solar contractor will be open to trying to half ass a system.

The OP should just install the meter socket as requested and let the solar contractor do their thing. The meter collar is a perfectly acceptable MID device.

If the solar company is not planning to install the collar the same day as the meter socket gets installed the OP should ask for the jumper cover so the homeowner will not be left without power.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies.
curt swartz said:
It sounds like the OP is just being asked to add the meter socket and there is a solar contractor installing the rest. If so I doubt the solar contractor will be open to trying to half ass a system.
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I am not trying to half ass anything, its just hard to believe this Enphase MID can open under load and is not a total piece of junk,I am really turned off by the extra meter socket idea, so I was looking for options to throw at the solar people, you typically dont see a generator vendor locking you into their ATS, For example the Schnieder ASCO 300 is compatible with a wide range of generators, as it is designed to connect to and control various power sources, including multiple generators working in parallel.
curt swartz said:
The OP should just install the meter socket as requested and let the solar contractor do their thing.
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Thats likely what will happen, I appreciate all the feedback.
 
pipe_bender said:
Thanks everyone for the replies.

I am not trying to half ass anything, its just hard to believe this Enphase MID can open under load and is not a total piece of junk,I am really turned off by the extra meter socket idea, so I was looking for options to throw at the solar people, you typically dont see a generator vendor locking you into their ATS, For example the Schnieder ASCO 300 is compatible with a wide range of generators, as it is designed to connect to and control various power sources, including multiple generators working in parallel.
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I agree that it feels like a hack on the part of enphase. They don't want to sell two MIDs where they can make one work. As for compatibility, solar equipment manufacturers want to keep everyone locked into their product offerings. It's not that you could not assemble something from off the shelf parts, it's that it would probably end up costing more, be harder to fix since emphase won't support another vendor's product, and in the end probably not work as well.
PV and battery systems that operate both in parallel with the utility and as islanded power sources have much more complex control requirements for the grid connection than a backup generator that never operates in parallel with the utility. An MID is a really high end ATS that enphase has managed to make cost effective for small microgrids. I have to give them that.
 
pv_n00b said:
I agree that it feels like a hack on the part of enphase. They don't want to sell two MIDs where they can make one work. As for compatibility, solar equipment manufacturers want to keep everyone locked into their product offerings. It's not that you could not assemble something from off the shelf parts, it's that it would probably end up costing more, be harder to fix since emphase won't support another vendor's product, and in the end probably not work as well.
PV and battery systems that operate both in parallel with the utility and as islanded power sources have much more complex control requirements for the grid connection than a backup generator that never operates in parallel with the utility. An MID is a really high end ATS that enphase has managed to make cost effective for small microgrids. I have to give them that.
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Interlocks are not that hard to do, and it appears Inphase is using a 24 volt signal to tell the inverter to go to island mode. But somebody not familiar with designing controls could easily screw it up. If our electric rates go up enough to make it feasible, I’m going MicroHydro with utility backup. They would have to go even higher for solar to pay off in my area. Most of our power is generated by hydro or nuclear.
 
Frankly the meter collar strikes me as something that the residential ATS manufacturers should have come up with decades ago. We've seen pics here of hack work on meter mains to reroute busbars to a bulky ATS. That whole predicament isn't necessary.
 
hillbilly1 said:
it appears Enphase is using a 24 volt signal to tell the inverter to go to island mode. ...
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Incorrect. The inverters do it on their own. The 24V is an alternative power source from the Enphase batteries to the meter collar and combiner, and the comms is separate. They are for failsafe and diagnosis/recovery type purposes.
 
jaggedben said:
Frankly the meter collar strikes me as something that the residential ATS manufacturers should have come up with decades ago. We've seen pics here of hack work on meter mains to reroute busbars to a bulky ATS. That whole predicament isn't necessary.
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The other day I noticed that Franklin is now offering a meter collar MID option.
 
hillbilly1 said:
Interlocks are not that hard to do, and it appears Inphase is using a 24 volt signal to tell the inverter to go to island mode. But somebody not familiar with designing controls could easily screw it up. If our electric rates go up enough to make it feasible, I’m going MicroHydro with utility backup. They would have to go even higher for solar to pay off in my area. Most of our power is generated by hydro or nuclear.
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The meter collar is not just a simple switch. There are other electronics in it to communicate with the Combiner along with CT's.

I you are going to install grid tie PV with batteries you should be using equipment designed and listed to work together. No reason to reinvent the wheel.
 
Thanks again everyone case closed I have a permit applied for to install a meter socket and a critical loads panel, and move the POI and critical circuits to the new panel.

I had a further comment for you all installers of residential microgrid systems, I am no NEC expert like most of you, but I have worked on 'co generation' plants.
TLDR; Installers of residential microgrid systems would be wise to oppose vendor lock in via the code or listing requirements.

Errata; As most of you all probably know parallel generators that can sync with the grid to supply a peak load have existed since the beginning of the 'utility grid'. large campuses and industrial users use generators for peak power shaving / co-generation, microgrids are only 'new' in residential. Cogen turbines can also 'island', or export to the grid depending on the plants arrangement with the utility. Its becoming more cost effective and common even in the commercial sector, several campus here that had old steam plant upgraded and they moved from one big generator to two. Same with landfills that burn methane off and export power, as the landfill gets less methane they move from one turbine to several.
I am no expert on it, but I know the components of these systems are definitely not all in the same manufacturers eco system and the ones on campus and the landfill were installed under the NEC.

yes I am just a dumb electrician that bends pipe
and yes they were designed by people smarter than me a huge engineering firm, but the components were not the same product family, this makes maintaining the system cost effective as components can be replaced in the future with like for like function but not same manufacturer.
I have been sent to work alongside the campus maintenance team of replacements of things like contactors, ATS's, PLC's on these systems and they simply can use whatever brand is available as components reach end of life.
If for some reason Enphase disappears or discontinues the product and your customer needs a new 'MID' it would be great to replace the MID with a small ATS or PLC/ ATS combo, and while it may cost some $$$ it keeps the system running.
I know I am preaching to the choir thanks for reading.
 
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hillbilly1 said:
Interlocks are not that hard to do, and it appears Inphase is using a 24 volt signal to tell the inverter to go to island mode. But somebody not familiar with designing controls could easily screw it up. If our electric rates go up enough to make it feasible, I’m going MicroHydro with utility backup. They would have to go even higher for solar to pay off in my area. Most of our power is generated by hydro or nuclear.
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Interlocks are easy, that's what backup generators use. Prevent someone from connecting the generator if the utility is connected. Paralleling an active islanded microgrid with the utility grid in sync does not use an interlock, it uses an MID which is much more complex.
 
jaggedben said:
Yeah I believe they are using a ConnectDER product. Which, btw, as a third party product, could be a stepping stone to a flexible meter-collar-MID that would not be "locked-in" to a particular manufacturer's ecosystem.
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The ConnectDER meter socket adapter is a simple device and it lacks the functionality of an MID. They are coming out with an MID product called the IslandDER that will have the required functionality. Maybe this is what enphase is using and ConnectDER is white labeling it for enphase.
 
pv_n00b said:
The ConnectDER meter socket adapter is a simple device and it lacks the functionality of an MID. They are coming out with an MID product called the IslandDER that will have the required functionality. Maybe this is what enphase is using and ConnectDER is white labeling it for enphase.
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No the Enphase meter collar is an Enphase manufactured product. Franklin says they'll be using the IslandDER. (ConnectDER is also the name of the company.)
 
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